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Post by scottwashburn on Nov 19, 2016 22:57:01 GMT
I remember on the old forum that we had a seemingly endless debate on machine guns. Some claimed that they were too powerful. Their +1 power combined with a ROF of 3 made them statistically better than the cannons mounted on most tanks. Some people talked of making their armies with tanks armed with nothing but machine guns. I tried to stay away from all the nonsense so I can't claim to have read all the comments or any proposals for alternate rules. So forgive me if what I'm about to write was discussed before.
I can see the argument about machine guns being too powerful. When firing at an armored target like a tripod it's hard to see how a machine gun (even a 50-cal) could have a better chance to hurt a tripod than a 4" cannon. But what to do? To reduce their power to 0 means they have no chance at all to hurt an undamaged tripod. This leaves infantry totally helpless except in a close assault.
So I'm thinking that perhaps machine guns (and all small arms, actually) should retain their existing power ratings, but if they do score a penetrating hit, they get a -3 on their die roll on the tripod damage chart. This would prevent them from doing a killing blow and any roll of a 1, 2, or 3 would do no damage at all.
Just a thought.
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Post by madmorgan on Nov 19, 2016 23:05:54 GMT
Hmm you're on later that "usual". I feel that the MGs are fine at their current levels, as with that much lead hitting the machine, its very probable that something will find a weak spot or important link to their systems. However, I can see your point as well - so perhaps a modifier that would move the damage away from the more drastic Tripod Damage Table results would be helpful. A further point to that would be to change the modification by some amount based on the damage inflicted so far - a Scout with 4 points of damage should have a better change of drastic damage by a hail of bullets; always the chance to find a niche to worse situation for the tripod. So with a, say -3, adjusted roll on the TD Table, you'd add back +1 for every 2 hits?? In the Scout example, if its taken 4 hits of damage, it only gets a -1 on the TD table?
More on this later - what do you think??
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Post by boxholder on Nov 20, 2016 1:38:28 GMT
For simplicity, I would choose one modifier and stay with it. This can become a case of one too many things to track and is pretty "fiddly."
One simple one might be: -2 on damage from penetrating hits with one added for each extra hit inflicted in the same firing phase. Thus a single unit would not kill, but multiple MGs firing might.
A storm of lead (or hardened steel or tungsten) may eventually chew through, and there are few things worse than bullets ricocheting around inside an enclosed space.
$0.02
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Post by madmorgan on Nov 20, 2016 14:47:43 GMT
Yes, I'm getting old and all these changes, however good or well intended, starts to strain the ease of play that AQ offered for a complex story (Martian Invasion after all). Although I concur with Scott's analysis about the power of the MG, it's more detail than is needed for the game play. I'm very guilty of adding complexity to the game through all my various attempts at rules and units - so, I'll be the first to say that we should probably limit our complexity or else the game will go beyond being able to be played. If you drop the whole ship idea, for example, you leave out a lot of problems. But, you also lose one of the key Human savings - the power of naval forces that prevent (at least for now) a majority of Martian victory where ever there is river, great lake, or coastline near the battlefield. So, for now, I'm out of the loop for any further machine gun changes. Not that their not good ideas - just no more level of complexity to the game for me.
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Post by boxholder on Nov 20, 2016 19:30:04 GMT
Don't give up the ships. (pardon pun)
You already have their firepower factored up. The only real questions are damage to their larger hulls and how much is lethal. Besides, the philosophy for handling damage to the land ironclad has also done a lot of the work that can be adapted for water ironclads.
They also look very cool on the table.
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Post by gdieckhaus on Nov 21, 2016 4:25:30 GMT
I like the -2 to the tripod chart for the machine gun rule ...
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Post by David N.Tanner 07011959 on Nov 21, 2016 16:42:38 GMT
I like the -2 too  |
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Post by scottwashburn on Nov 21, 2016 19:03:12 GMT
Actually, I think I meant it to be a -2 in the first place. For some reason I was thinking that an '8' was also an automatic kill. So yes, a -2 would be right. Always check your sources! |
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Post by tenchuu on Nov 22, 2016 15:17:54 GMT
I agree. Machine gun nests are very strong, particularly in groups. The -2 is a simple change.
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Post by madmorgan on Nov 25, 2016 16:34:20 GMT
Yes, I've been experimenting with a 1/72 A7V model I have, practicing for my purchase of S2Gs 'G7V' machine gun 'carrier' - you know, the one that runs up and unloads (2) full squads worth of MG whilst its 57mm continues to pour on the fire. This leaves it without the internal MGs, but, its a great way to reinforce a trench line or group of buildings/ruins.
I concur - the simple -2 for a MG hit on the Tripod Damage table makes sense. But, I still argue that it should be modified by the amount of damage on target tripod. Amount is up to you all - my 2 cents worth is one for two or three damage that already exists on a given tripod. We'll use three points as the number of hits that allows better chance on damage on the TDT. So, our machine gun squad blazes away at an Assault tripod, doing an amazing two points of damage. Next turn, if they survive, they unload another two hits. The three hits were rolled on the TDT at -2 per the rule; the fourth hit is rolled with a -1. Assume a third fire phase for our valiant gunners. A further 4 hits have scored from a battery of field artillery; now when the MG squad fires, it gets to roll on the table without any minuses due to all the damage the Assault has taken already; there's just much more area exposed that could let a stream of bullets into vital components.
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Post by scottwashburn on Nov 26, 2016 2:40:39 GMT
Why not just use the rules as they are written for this? Machine guns, throwing lots of dice are going to score lots of hits and have the chance of scoring multiple penetrations. If you score multiple penetrations in a single attack then you only roll one die on the damage chart but give a plus 1 for each extra penetration. So a bunch of machine gun hits in one attack would negate the -2 and give the chance of a killing blow.
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Post by David N.Tanner 07011959 on Nov 26, 2016 20:37:13 GMT
Why not just use the rules as they are written for this? Machine guns, throwing lots of dice are going to score lots of hits and have the chance of scoring multiple penetrations. If you score multiple penetrations in a single attack then you only roll one die on the damage chart but give a plus 1 for each extra penetration. So a bunch of machine gun hits in one attack would negate the -2 and give the chance of a killing blow. Excellent idea. |
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Post by boxholder on Nov 27, 2016 1:37:54 GMT
Simple and elegant.
Simplicity uber alles!
Besides, a bucket full of dice hitting the table is pretty intimidating in its own right. Watch the target sweat as you flick through them counting up hits
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Post by madmorgan on Nov 27, 2016 3:27:28 GMT
Egads this would be a big plus for the grunts out there. Like it. Can't wait to see what my S2G and Black Hat units with their Gatling guns can do with that rule |
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Post by gdieckhaus on Nov 29, 2016 16:31:54 GMT
Why not just use the rules as they are written for this? Machine guns, throwing lots of dice are going to score lots of hits and have the chance of scoring multiple penetrations. If you score multiple penetrations in a single attack then you only roll one die on the damage chart but give a plus 1 for each extra penetration. So a bunch of machine gun hits in one attack would negate the -2 and give the chance of a killing blow. Excellent idea. This is exactly how I was thinking about the -2 on machine guns. The roll on the chart gets a -2, but gets positive modifiers for multiple penetrations. |
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