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Post by scottwashburn on May 4, 2017 13:51:57 GMT
Okay, here's a suggestion for future Martian weapons systems. We know that Martian tripods can explode accidentally due to damage, making a huge blast which can do massive damage to other units around it.
So how about a tripod which the Martian can explode ON PURPOSE?
Technically, there's no reason why this can't be done. Clearly there are safeguards which prevent the explosion under normal circumstances, but those safeguards can be disabled due to battle damage. We can assume that the safeguards could be disabled voluntarily and the explosion set off deliberately.
I suppose the Martian pilot could do this if it finds itself badly damaged and surrounded by the humans, but I think I'd rather not have that as a game option. But there's no reason you could not have an un-piloted tripod which could be operated remotely like a drone. Run the thing at full speed into a mass of humans and set it off. They could be purpose built on a scout chassis and not have a weapon, so they would be cheap to construct. I'd still see them costing 100 points or so.
They could be useful for attacking defensive positions.
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Post by madmorgan on May 5, 2017 9:55:13 GMT
Well, I must say that is a frighting idea. Would really put your fortress walls to test. I still have a major issue with any 'suicide' designs of machines of any size. The primary objection is the lack of Martian metal available for unless there are resupply cylinders on the way, the amount of Martian alloys is limited to what can be recovered from downed machines on the battlefield. A 'Recovery' scenario presents a real situation I'd think. More on one of those later. But, I do wish all of you 'suicide' thinkers would address the amount of Martian metal available before just blowing up both drones and tripods alike. All that theory aside, it becomes a matter of game balance as well. A wave of fast (supped up by Scientist to a 10" move), Scout style 'bombs' would just blow the heck out of any trench and fortress line and the game would proceed to be very much over very quickly. Not fun and not a challenge. A success like that would lead to further use against river lines. While we're at it, how about a Hover drone as a bomb! With that, even riverine forces would be at risk. Heck, use the whole idea of the relay systems mentioned elsewhere and the coastal naval units would be under the 'bombs'. I suppose as open as I am to new things in the game, I've finally hit the wall of 'don't change it' nay sayers. For now, I've yet to be convinced that the Martians would develop suicide warfare of limited resource materials as a tactic.
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Post by hardlec on May 6, 2017 18:41:42 GMT
Humans have forlorn hope and clamp tanks. The Martians would doubtless use the same extreme tactics. There would have to be a lot of agreement as to how this can be done in game terms.
Fireships, Kamikazes and other suicide troops have shown themselves to be objects of desperation and very rarely changed the outcome of the conflict.
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Post by madmorgan on May 8, 2017 8:52:56 GMT
With all due respect, why do you think the Martians "would doubtless use the extreme tactics"?? I know its just a game, but, I can't see the highly logical, alien, and 'superior' Martians developing a concept so 'prey-related' as suicide. So, lets agree to disagree on this one. When S2G produces the 'bomb' drone, I'll use mine for carriers and you can use yours for bombs. Carriage Drone: 1 element @30 points - Speed 8 Defense 6 Armor 6 Special: Rescue, Replace. Rescue - the CD can use a move phase to rescue a Martian from a downed tripod simply by being next to said tripod. Replace - the CD may use a move phase to put its passenger Martian into an unoccupied tripod simply by being next to said tripod.
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Post by hardlec on May 9, 2017 5:25:42 GMT
For the Martians it may not be suicide. When a body is too old or injured to survive much longer the Martian may bud off a replacement of itself and use the dying body for a one-way mission. From a purely logical point of view, using "used up" equipment for one last mission makes sence sometimes. Sometimes not. I think if the Martians use one-way weapons, the weapons should cost full points and count as casualties towards the Martians breaking. Martians seem to show anger and pride: "The Prey will never take me Prisoner" seems to be possible, if unusual. If the Martians find out that the prey creatures are scavenging, they may install scuttling charges.
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Post by scottwashburn on May 9, 2017 13:28:31 GMT
That's a good point. In my books, the humans definitely are salvaging Martian equipment. (In about another five pages in Book 3 the Martians are going to discover that big time! ) So they may take steps to deny wrecked equipment to the prey creatures.
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Post by madmorgan on May 9, 2017 14:16:14 GMT
Okay, so how does a rule(s) work to allow this kind of thing. I agree the Martians would try to deny their tech/equip to the prey-that-stings; so how do we implement it without having a game where all the lead tripods rush in, blow the hell out of everything and the Martians just waltz over the board? And keep it simple. Points is a big thing too - too little and its an easy Mars victory, too expensive and why waste the points on an oddity (with the possible exception of Fortress City wall attacks).
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Post by hardlec on May 9, 2017 14:55:10 GMT
Bomb drones are visually different from other drones. A drone carrier is a great idea BTW.
If a tripod explodes due to damage, the effect is immediate and wreckage can be recovered​. If a damaged tripod scuttles itself, there is a full turn for the Martian escape pod to evacuate and for humans to either evacuate or attempt to disarm the scuttling charge. If the scuttling is successful there is very little to scavenge.
Tripods used as fireships will be limited, 1 per 1000 points, cost full points, and be considered as lost to combat for morale purposes. (Expensive for the Martians.
Perhaps we should develope a chart for what humans can recover from downed Tripods. Sometimes, most times, it will be some scrap metal; sometimes it will be something useful; rarely a great treasure. The chart will have modifiers such that scuttled tripods produce next to nothing.
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Post by madmorgan on May 10, 2017 9:45:57 GMT
I assume (yeah I know) that the Bomb Tripod is remote controlled? Like the idea of a chart. Seems cheap though for the Bomb Tripod - Scout at 150 in a 3k game wouldn't be all that expensive for something that can attack a Fortress Wall. Btw, how much damage does it do against said wall?? Standard 'explosion' damage seems too light for something that is packed with explosives doesn't it? I suppose we should do a full stat work up for the Bomb Tripod - see below and please comment for the ?? in the stats. I used the Scout as the basis (faster & cheaper). Bomb Tripod @150 per unit. Speed 10" Defense 6 Armor 10 Special: Rare; can have a Fake Targeter ; Suicide Explosive; Remote Controlled; Medium Heatray. Rare: limited 1 per 1000 points Fake Targeter: ?? of coarse it could be real, but, only confers a +1 To Hit due to difficulty remote controlling Medium Heatray: ?? fake also or could be real, but, no sweeps allowed (again due to remote control) Remote Controlled: ?? (standard 12" range? by Slaver?? or by any???) Suicide Explosive: ?? controlled explosion doing amount of damage as an AoE of ?? Standard is AoE 6" 3 hits @ power of 2.One further thing about the above machine - if it is destroyed before reaching target, does it explode with its full effect?? Suicide Drone: @60 per unit of 3 elements. Speed 6" Defense 6 Armor 7 Special: Drones; Light Heatray; Reaper Tentacles; Suicide Bomb; Remote Controlled. Drones: follows standard rule Light Heatray: real or fake, if real -1 To Hit due to difficulty of Remote Control. Reaper Tentacles: real or fake, if real only +1 Assault due to Remote Control. Suicide Bomb: detonation causes destruction of drone and ???AoE?? 1 hit?? @ power of ?? All of the above is a starting point to stat out these machines. I'm not sure about the cost ratio of the rarity - maybe less for a specific scenario like assault on a Fortress city and more for regular field use. Lots of holes in the above - lets try to fill them with an eye (or two) towards game balance please.
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Post by boxholder on May 29, 2017 23:18:31 GMT
I would suggest that the "Fireships" topic from the General Discussions be merged with this one somehow. To some extent we are "talking past each other."
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Post by hardlec on Jun 1, 2017 11:25:43 GMT
If desired, I will repeat my "fireship Tripod" post here, or post a link, and ask the moderator​ to close the fireship thread.
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Post by GarageBay9 on Jun 1, 2017 22:04:40 GMT
I can absolutely see the Martians developing a remotely controlled bomb vehicle for breaching fortifications or punching a hole in a defensive line.
I played a computer strategy game years back where the "evil computer" side had what was called a Skuttle Roach - basically, a wad of plastic explosives on legs. But it worked like the wind up toy from Hell: you point it at the target, hit "go", and it slowly accelerates until it's moving like a blur. But it can't really dodge or maneuver. Once it's committed to its course, it's essentially a running missile.
When they worked they were terrifying, but a prepared player had ways to mess with them (tank traps, forward spotters for long range guns, or just make a hole in the battle line and allow them to zip right on through, a la Hannibal's elephants).
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Post by David N.Tanner 07011959 on Jun 2, 2017 1:04:57 GMT
I can absolutely see the Martians developing a remotely controlled bomb vehicle for breaching fortifications or punching a hole in a defensive line. I played a computer strategy game years back where the "evil computer" side had what was called a Skuttle Roach - basically, a wad of plastic explosives on legs. But it worked like the wind up toy from Hell: you point it at the target, hit "go", and it slowly accelerates until it's moving like a blur. But it can't really dodge or maneuver. Once it's committed to its course, it's essentially a running missile. When they worked they were terrifying, but a prepared player had ways to mess with them (tank traps, forward spotters for long range guns, or just make a hole in the battle line and allow them to zip right on through, a la Hannibal's elephants). Now that's an idea I can get behind. Maybe there could a self destruct on the Drones.
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Post by madmorgan on Jun 2, 2017 10:09:19 GMT
Bomb Drones would be a more balanced addition to the Martian arsenal. My only problem with any of the self-destruct ideas is the finite amount of Martian metal available to the invaders. Even striping pieces off the cylinders only allows for a limited amount and a major part of the Martian war effort would be reclaiming downed/destroyed tripods and drones for their metal. A good number of scenarios could be generated on these scavenger missions for both the humans and Martians. As noted by others, Martians wouldn't be prone to suicide (buds needed) and I think would tend to see such self-destruct as a waste of materials. My final 2 cents on the matter as those that want them will make them. I, for one, will not be using them. One further note - even putting explosives in an regular drone model is counter-productive to recovering metal at a later date - all those little pieces to find, too time consuming I'd suggest.
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Post by boxholder on Jun 2, 2017 12:14:13 GMT
Yes. And to follow Mr Washburn's logic, when the structure of Martian tripod is disrupted, the damaged area disintegrates into flakes. That would make salvage of a Martian unit destroyed by internal explosion exceedingly difficult.
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