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Post by David N.Tanner 07011959 on Jun 3, 2017 13:54:00 GMT
Mad and Box both make good points. One question; aren't the Martians mining earth and making "Martian metal?" It seems to me it's more a new technology not a rare exotic substance brought from home. Just my two cents.
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Post by madmorgan on Jun 3, 2017 14:08:18 GMT
I've wondered about that since day 1. It was never really covered in the background info and you have to think that there is some Martian quality component that isn't available on Earth. At least, that is what I'm working from. There certainly isn't anything like the properties of even current Earth tech that could make the type of armor presented thus far. Note that the most of the movies to date dodge the issue with force field tech for the invaders. So, as there's not a force field tech in our game, the metal has to be special, rare, and from Mars. Maybe not logical - but, its a game. Thoughts??
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Post by boxholder on Jun 3, 2017 15:12:09 GMT
Well, in Mr Washburn's stories there does not appear to be any functional difference between tripods brought along and local production. The Washburn book has the Martian noting that key elements are here on Earth, but in different proportions. So the difference is probably in the processing that the constructors perform. There are only so many elements. The artistry is in combining them. Perhaps some traces may have been brought along, but no major quantities. That would place a premium on learning the processing tricks.
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Post by hardlec on Jun 3, 2017 18:32:03 GMT
I have tried to organize a few thoughts toward the notion of “bomb Tripods.” This whole concept of the “Fireship Tripod” is to be able to do scenarios based on upcoming fiction. As a part of a regular game, these ideas almost certainly not work. The salvage rules will work as part of a campaign, or in a scenario built around salvage. Martians appear to have behaviour that humans would describe as narcissistic. They will destroy their machines rather than let their technology fall into human hands. Certain Martians will destroy themselves rather than be captured alive, although the martians will go to great lengths to escape alive. Humans are desperate to gain any advantage over the Martians, creating an intense conflict over the bits and pieces left after a battle. Fireships are an act of desperation. The rules here are most emphatically not expected to be part of regular games. They should work well enough when re-creating fiction or for specially designed scenarios. Fireship Tripod Some tripods come back from the field of battle too damaged to be worth repair or refit. Some of these tripods have been modified for a one-way trip to self-destruct and destroy particularly difficult fortifications of the prey-that-stings. Fireship Tripods have the fighting compartment replaced by drone receiver systems. Any useable equipment is salvaged. Once converted to a drone, the fireship is led into combat to its final destination and then it is detonated. Any tripod may be converted to a fireship, however Assault Tripods are most commonly used. Fireship Tripod: Speed: 6 Defence: 6 Armor: 11 Weapons: None Cost: 175 points Limited 1000: only one Fireship tripod may be used per 1000 points of the total army size. Drone: must be within 16 inches of a drone controller Detonate on command: At any point during the fireship’s activation, it may choose to detonate. The Fireship tripod is destroyed. Every target up to 6 inches from the Fireship suffers 3 hits at power +2. As a drone, the fireship tripod does not count toward the break point of the army to which it belongs. Scuttling charge: Cost: 25 points If a Tripod has scuttling charges, it may self destruct at any time during its activation. The tripod is destroyed. Every target up to 6 inches from the Fireship suffers 3 hits at power +2. A tripod that scuttles counts double toward break point. For Campaigns, done post-battle. Attempt to salvage from a tripod: Roll once for each tripod left on the field if the humans win the scenario. Modify the roll by -1 if the tripod was destroyed by a critical hit. Modify the roll by -2 if the tripod was destroyed by scuttling charges or if the tripod had been used as a Fireship. 1: Tripod is booby trapped and kills all salvagers. Nothing is salvaged 2: Nothing is salvaged 3: Nothing is salvaged 4: Metal Recovered 5: Metal Recovered 6: Metal Recovered 7: Damaged tentacle recovered 8: Damaged weapon recovered 9: Damaged power core recovered 10: Roll on Treasure Chart Treasure Chart 1: Tripod is booby trapped and kills all salvagers. Nothing is salvaged 2: Metal recovered 3: Intact tentacle recovered 4: Intact tentacle recovered 5: Intact weapon recovered 6: Intact weapon recovered 7: Intact power core recovered 8: Intact power core recovered 9: Martian body recovered. 10: Live Martian recovered Players may consider creating trained salvage teams and/or designating vehicles for the expressed purpose of salvaging items of value from downed tripod.
I would ask the moderator to please close the "Fireship" thread.
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Post by madmorgan on Jun 7, 2017 10:18:35 GMT
Okay, those are all very reasonable layouts. My only question would be that the drone has as much destructive power as a tripod. Otherwise, both the Fireship and salvage rules are very well laid out. I wonder what the humans would do with an intact power core after the disaster at Liverpool. Probably setup a lab to work on it on one of the west coast islands. Or east coast Keys, etc. Finally, if its a granted that all the elements that are needed for Martian metals are available on Earth, then the matter is put to rest. In the science fiction of our AQ world, I'd like to think there's something special that only the Martians (and any other non-Earth force) can make. I admit, it's more logical that everything they need is here, making the conquest a matter of 'when', not if, from their point of view. Don't close it, as folks might want to copy the above work to print or other files. We can just all agree to shut up about it.
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Post by boxholder on Jun 7, 2017 12:56:39 GMT
The whole point of bringing "constructors" is to obviate the need for bringing lots of hardware and materials along. The materials (elements) are here, so you bring only the knowledge and the technology to assemble the materials properly. Knowledge doesn't weigh anything and lets you use the constructor to build whatever you need.
It is not much of a stretch to envision the Martians being able to build up materials layer by layer at the crystalline level. This fits the description of the Martian materials. We now have that ability, although somewhat quantity limited. Turn-of- the- century human technology probably would not have been up to the task because you need large vacuum systems and high power electrical systems to do it. Again, if the Martians bring the knowledge with them, they can apply it here and probably get good results.
However, knowing that a thing can be done can accelerate the development by humans. For example, if the question "Is supersonic flight possible?" is answered, then humans will know that it is possible. Then the question is "How do I do it?" Multiple approaches will suddenly emerge, advancing the overall technology level. This may be something that the Martians may regret.
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Post by David N.Tanner 07011959 on Jun 8, 2017 3:25:12 GMT
The whole point of bringing "constructors" is to obviate the need for bringing lots of hardware and materials along. The materials (elements) are here, so you bring only the knowledge and the technology to assemble the materials properly. Knowledge doesn't weigh anything and lets you use the constructor to build whatever you need. It is not much of a stretch to envision the Martians being able to build up materials layer by layer at the crystalline level. This fits the description of the Martian materials. We now have that ability, although somewhat quantity limited. Turn-of- the- century human technology probably would not have been up to the task because you need large vacuum systems and high power electrical systems to do it. Again, if the Martians bring the knowledge with them, they can apply it here and probably get good results. However, knowing that a thing can be done can accelerate the development by humans. For example, if the question "Is supersonic flight possible?" is answered, then humans will know that it is possible. Then the question is "How do I do it?" Multiple approaches will suddenly emerge, advancing the overall technology level. This may be something that the Martians may regret. And if We have Edison, Tesla, and Einstein and others working on Martian tech it shouldn't take very long to figure it out.
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Post by madmorgan on Jun 8, 2017 10:12:46 GMT
Okay - I yield to logic presented by both harlec and boxholder. It does make perfect sense that the Martians well planned invasion would of included the ability to readily replace their destroyed machines. I submit that a destroyed-by-hits (armor destroyed) tripod would certainly blow up with the Fireship results. So, as always, hit them hard to stop them. My only concern with the whole idea now is the drone. First, it has the best controller range (16") in the game?? Second, it has the same explosive effect as a much larger tripod. I would reduce the range to the standard 12" and drop the effect of the explosive to either a Pow +1 at 6" or (better) a Pow +2 at 4" AoE. This has been a lively debate and one that has both educated me and brought me around to a new line of thinking. One further note - I'd think they'd use Scout tripods for Fireships as well. The speed more than makes up for the lower armor. And let's not forget the Scientist upgrade! A speed 10" or Armor 12 Assault Fireship would be a monster. Next will be an OOB including Fireships. I look forward to working with these new machines (shudder prey!)
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Post by hardlec on Jun 8, 2017 16:13:23 GMT
The "fireship" as I presented is an assault tripod, stripped of armament and other useful things as possible, then used as a drone. there is no suicide pilot. It has a longer range than a standard drone because (even) the Martians don't want to get too close to it. I took off all the weapons mainly because I didn't think a berserker tripod would be much fun.
According to the rulebook, the damage an exploding tripod does is to give 3 hits to each target within 6 inches at +3 power. This would probably destroy and wall segments within 6 inches.
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Post by madmorgan on Jun 8, 2017 17:12:03 GMT
I've started an OOB for a battle using the above Fireship Tripods. It is only the start of it, but can generate ideas. Note that you can use it as is - just plug in the human forces as you see fit. Enjoy!
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Post by scottwashburn on Jun 20, 2017 16:37:43 GMT
Well, in Mr Washburn's stories there does not appear to be any functional difference between tripods brought along and local production. The Washburn book has the Martian noting that key elements are here on Earth, but in different proportions. So the difference is probably in the processing that the constructors perform. There are only so many elements. The artistry is in combining them. Perhaps some traces may have been brought along, but no major quantities. That would place a premium on learning the processing tricks. On the subject of "Martian Metal" I consider it highly unlikely that with two planets created from the same cloud of dust and gas that formed the solar system that one of them would have elements that the other lacks. So I reject the notion that the Martians' metallic alloys would contain some unknown element not found on Earth. The whole secret of the Martian metals is the manufacturing process.
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Post by hardlec on Jun 22, 2017 15:34:45 GMT
Go to the market and test several different brands of chocolate chip cookies. Then come to my kitchen and taste mine made from scratch. Ingredients are important, but it's all in how they're put together.
Most of the latest Martian Machines are made of materials they "salvaged" from the Earth. It's all in the way the Martians use them.
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