|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 14, 2017 22:11:20 GMT
Wow! Bill, thank you very much, that's an awesome amount of ideas.
Artillery movement - sounds good, will change
Terrain - yep, I need to think on this, my first thought is that you could see into the woods for 3" regardless of whether you are in it or not (mainly for simplicity). Protection bonus sounds good.
Assault - I had originally thought of the idea that when a unit moved into rough terrain that they would auto change to skirmish formation, then change back to the desired formation when they left, but decided it was adding a complicated element to the idea of basic rules that I was trying to do. I like you idea here better, it will make close combat in woods very deadly. Do you think units would be able to do the free flee as a reaction at the start of successive combat fights (eg: you have fought and both side were'nt panicked at the end, when you go to start the next round of rolls for combat, could a regiment do a reactionary roll to flee?)
Morale - the idea of the open ground was supposed to be that of the units wanting to get to the safety of cover, maybe I need to make things like walls and fences remove this as well. When it was written, I had originally planned to make it that you needed to buy the command stand for a regiment & thought that this would give a plus 1 bonus, but I changed that and added the regiment leader as a freebie. Might drop it as it does make it a bit harder. I did have a thought last night of making the morale maximum 9, so that it couldn't be any higher than that.
Weapons - I didn't do a lot with this, simply for the simplicity idea for the game, happy to change this. Do you think this would just be a Say a 2 point upgrade for a standard unit?
Shooting Artillery - yep, same thing with the artillery, didn't want to go too rules crazy with starting rules, but I do like those rules. I will change that in the next few days and upload the new rules to Wargames Vault.
Thanks again, really appreciated and it was very helpful. Things I didn't see with first plays here.
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 14, 2017 23:40:29 GMT
I have been playing historical miniatures for 40 years. Lots of experience with many different sets of rules. Let you see things someone else might not think of.
I like the idea of needing a 9 being the worst possible roll for morale. A 10 is just too tough.
I would charge the same points for both types of artillery rather than an upgrade to the battery. Buy a smoothbore and get shorter range and better cannister or buy a rifle and get longer range and weaker cannister. Almost half of the batteries in the Army of the Potomac were rifles. Just let the players choose which type of gun they want.
Fighting in the woods should be ugly. Units that moved into woods tried their best to stay in formation. They just moved slower. The 1/2 move in the woods reflects that. While a unit is still in good morale I would not give it the option to run away. Once a unit becomes panicked, then I would give them the option to make a die roll to break off from the fight and run away. If they do they will run the full 8" and ignore terrain modifiers.
Another thing to figure out down the road is the difference in the size of artillery batteries. All Union batteries were 6 guns. Between 90-95% of Confederate batteries were 4 guns. That gave the Union a significant artillery firepower advantage that came into play all the time. I wouldn't worry about it now. Just need to make sure the basic rules work before starting to mess around too much.
You are right to keep it simple. Fast games that play well are good fun.
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 15, 2017 12:35:12 GMT
A couple more things. There are no modifiers for charging the flank or rear. I had a cavalry unit in column hit an infantry unit in the flank. How many dice should I have rolled ?? The infantry broke and we're then hit in the rear by the same cavalry. How many dice for that ??
I have a unit in melee. Another unit is 6" behind them. The first unit breaks and flees 8". What happens when it gets to the second unit. Does it stop,go around if there is space,or does it go through the other unit ?? What happens to the second unit if the first one runs through it ?? No big deal,take a morale check to stay in good order, or something else ??
I will start thinking about traits shortly. Want to play another game without using them. For game two each side has
5 infantry, 2 cavalry, 2 guns, and 1 commander. All units placed on table with random die rolls for which section ( left, center, right ).
|
|
|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 15, 2017 22:24:27 GMT
Ahh Poop! I didnt update this page this morning and have just updated the rules on Wargames Vault! Sorry.
Ok, so I'm thinking something along the lines of "the number of bases contacted +3 dice" for a Flank and rear assault. Ive added another formation that I've called Block formation, this is used for Cavalry Charges and for duel rank depth shooting. This gives an extra +3 for these actions when in block formation, so my first thought is that this situation should be similar.
When the unit flees it goes into Skirmish and should just move around in the best possible way. I thought about making units within 8" of a breaking unit roll for panic as well when I first wrote it, but decided to keep that apart till it could be discussed, as I thought it might start to make it more complicated. Whats your thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 15, 2017 23:07:20 GMT
I just downloaded the newest version and took a quick look. Saw lots of changes. Saw you made woods fighting nasty. Do the units keep going in the same turn ? Or one round of melee per turn ? Like the basic artillery actions. Also saw you dropped cannister to 8" but still kept saves. Also no double cannister special order to eliminate saves.
Being able to move and charge really makes the game move fast. Cavalry getting up to 24" in one move and infantry 16" means you get into action quickly. That will get the fighting started by turn two or three.
I think that when a broken unit hits another unit when it flees you can either have be in skirmish and flow around the other unit if there is space, or if no space then it runs through the unit forcing a morale check to stay in good order. If it fails it becomes panicked.
If artillery is up on a hill can it shoot over friendly units ? Do units block line of sight for shooting (friendly&enemy)??
Block formation looks good. Do both ranks shoot/fight in block, or only the front rank. If you +3 dice per rank that will add 6 dice to your total right ??
Easy started an FAQ thread with some of the same questions I've been asking.
Game is looking good.
|
|
|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 16, 2017 11:40:33 GMT
Sorry it took a little time getting back, we've got our summer holidays here at the moment and my twin boys love spending time helping me to lose my hair and my voice!ok, so here's some of my thoughts:I just downloaded the newest version and took a quick look. Saw lots of changes. Saw you made woods fighting nasty. Do the units keep going in the same turn ? Or one round of melee per turn ? Like the basic artillery actions. Also saw you dropped cannister to 8" but still kept saves. Also no double cannister special order to eliminate saves. Yep, they keep going. I need to check the rules (I'm at work at the moment), but I think it mentions that it doesn't follow step 6 (which is where the flee comes in), that you can only leave when panicked or destroyed.I thought we'd try the single canister first and see if it was still too weak with the save and then maybe do the other idea of 2 wounds per hit & no armour save for single canister, then just have double canister with longer range and maybe 3 wounds per hit (wondered whether to do a close range for the double as well, something like a 3 or 4 wounds per hit. Too much?)Being able to move and charge really makes the game move fast. Cavalry getting up to 24" in one move and infantry 16" means you get into action quickly. That will get the fighting started by turn two or three. Yep, I want it to be simple and fast. Do you think it might be too fast? Maybe it might lose some of the tactical manoeuvring if it's too quick?I think that when a broken unit hits another unit when it flees you can either have ebe in skirmish and flow around the other unit if there is space, or if no space then it runs through the unit forcing a morale check to stay in good order. If it fails it becomes panicked. Good idea, so a unit only rolls for panic if it has another unit move through it that is panicked. That covers the problem of the rolling break, I think, which has been on my mind (used to happen to me a lot in Clan Wars).If artillery is up on a hill can it shoot over friendly units ? Do units block line of sight for shooting (friendly&enemy)?? Elevation was another one that I had sort of left alone to start with. I did think of making elevation levels, eg: the artillery is on a hill with infantry below it, it can fire over it at any enemy in LOS and range, but if there is another enemy at the same elevation level then this one would block LOS to another unit behind it.My thoughts for simplicity is that in all situations of LOS, friendly units don't block, but enemy units do. So you can fire through or over your own units, but not through enemy units to hit other enemy units.Block formation looks good. Do both ranks shoot/fight in block, or only the front rank. If you +3 dice per rank that will add 6 dice to your total right ?? Sorry, I probably should change how that reads. Basically, you get your normal number of attacks = to the number of bases + 3 dice per each full rank of stands.This leads me to another thought that I had, what do you think of making the regiments bigger (can have more than just the 2nd rank)? It makes them a lot harder to panic and destroy. I only ask because if you can't make them bigger than the standard 10stands for Infantry & 8 for cavalry, then I only need make this comment say something like "+3 dice for the second rank".Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 16, 2017 13:17:48 GMT
I had thought to do one round of woods fighting per turn as other things are going on at the same time outside the woods. Continuing to fight on the same turn until someone breaks works too.
Block formation. I have 5 stands in the front rank and 5 stands in the second rank. For shooting I get 3 dice for the front rank and +3 more from the second rank for a total of 6 dice. In melee I get 5 dice for the front rank +3 more from the second rank for a total of 8 dice. Is that correct ??
For cannister the 3 wounds per hit are for smoothbore guns and the two wounds per hit are for rifled guns. The smoothbore guns had a bigger cannister round. I still don't like having saves vs cannister. The double cannister special order doesn't give you additional dice, it eliminates the saves. Since you have to roll to get it, you may or may not succeed. If cannister is only 8", infantry can reach the gun in a single move. The guns were to hit before they got that close. I'll try it and see.
I have played several rule sets where friendly units don't block line of sight but enemy units do. That works ok. However, none of them allowed you to shoot through formed friendly units. The unit in front either had to be lying down or be in skirmish formation. I'll try it and see, but I don't really like it.
Holidays with the kids. And twins to boot. Bet you're having a great time.
Are the figures available to order yet or are they still a work in progress ??
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 16, 2017 13:28:20 GMT
Knew I forgot something. Artillery free actions.
1St action - move 1/2 and unlimber 2nd action - shoot
or
1st action - shoot 2nd action - limber and move 1/2
or
If already unlimbered shoot in both action
or
1st action - limber and move 1/2 2nd action - move
or
Move in 1st then move 1/2 and unlimber in 2nd
or
Unlimber and shoot then shoot again
Lots of things
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 16, 2017 13:31:54 GMT
Don't need to make the units bigger. Since one stand is supposed to be a company or squadron, 10 and 8 is all you get. Bigger units with more stands means less room to maneuver.
|
|
|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 16, 2017 14:26:08 GMT
Yep, that is correct for block formation in regards to both shooting and charging.
Happy to change the canister rules to no save. As you have said, they were extremely deadly.
My main focus with the LOS rules are that they be simple (as with as much as I can do with this game), would it be easier to make all friendly formations block line of sight? The only other reason for suggesting the see-through friendly's was due to the speed of movement, you got me wondering if the speed would move this into a game of movement & charges, I thought that this might nullify the speed a little.
A basic action is considered as two events (a move and a shoot) that makes up a single action, it's not two actions (unless an order is being used). Movement is always done first with a basic action, so moves and un/limber happens before firing. The limber or unlimber are considered apart of the move, so it doesn't matter what order it's done in, as long as it's done before shooting. Once shooting is declared, no more movement can be done with the basic action. This however might mean that they may not be able to shoot due to limbering and moving, the shooting part of the action is lost when limbered.
Does that make sense?
Happy to hear that unit sizes will stay at those sizes, I prefer that.
|
|
|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 16, 2017 14:28:39 GMT
Figures area ready & available here at the Slave 2 Gaming webstore
Or you can contact me via email if you,have a specific idea that you want to make - slavemaster@slave2gaming.com
|
|
|
Post by billf on Jan 18, 2017 17:25:49 GMT
The actions make more sense now. I thought they were two separate actions rather than a two part one. I also like that once a unit shoots it can't do any more movement.
The jury is still out on LOS. I had an infantry unit shoot through a cavalry unit at an enemy cavalry unit. It felt truly weird. I kept thinking how is the infantry fire not hitting the formed cavalry that is right in front of them. It might be better to just say all units block LOS and keep it very simple.
Not sure on movement either. This game as soon as a unit could charge, it did. Three infantry and one cavalry fight. Why take fire when you can charge, roll 10 dice, and maybe panic the enemy in one round of fighting. Very little fire so far. Not very civil war like. Your comment about it becoming a move and charge game has some truth in it. Maybe you try move 8" and still fire or charge 10" or 12". Basically your free action becomes move&shoot or charge. Cavalry would charge 16".
What do you think ?
|
|
|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 19, 2017 2:10:42 GMT
Yep, Im still very undecided about the LOS thing, I think you might be right, Friendly's should block LOS.
The charge was always my concern with the movement. I'd thought of something like the Warmachine idea, where you gain an extra 3" to your normal move when you charge (this is the same for Infantry).
The other option is to say that a charge is apart of the movement (8 & 12") and the only benefit is that you get with a charge is the charge bonus, this would slow the movement down in the game a bit and allow units to shoot more, potentially causing more wounds and breaking the unit even if it wins combat.
|
|
|
Post by easye on Jan 19, 2017 3:34:07 GMT
In my game there was a lot of close combat as well, and units moved across the board really fast. However, I had Infantry in repel an assault by infantry in column! Perhaps Cavalry should only get the free charge and infantry would need to do charge as an Order? Thoughts?
I played that all units blocked LOS. However, you could take the units that could see the target and divide by 2 to get their firepower for shots from a partially screened unit. It worked fine.
I misplayed cannon movement as well.
I am about half way through the game playing about a turn every 3 days or so. The turns are pretty quick but my time has been very limited at my gaming table. I hope to have a battle report posted in my blog by the end of the weekend.
|
|
|
Post by slave2gaming on Jan 19, 2017 6:56:56 GMT
Perhaps Cavalry should only get the free charge and infantry would need to do charge as an Order? Thoughts?
Would they still get a second move with this, so 24" move? My thoughts are at the moment to remove the extra movement and maybe go with either say a +3" for charge, or a D5 extra move? Just reducing the speed of the assaults a little.
I played that all units blocked LOS. However, you could take the units that could see the target and divide by 2 to get their firepower for shots from a partially screened unit. It worked fine.
This would drop an Infantry unit shooting through to a 3 dice roll rather than a 5 dice roll? I do like this as complete blocking means that less shooting happens. Billf, what do you reckon?
I am about half way through the game playing about a turn every 3 days or so. The turns are pretty quick but my time has been very limited at my gaming table. I hope to have a battle report posted in my blog by the end of the weekend.
Cool. Look forward to seeing it.
|
|