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Post by scottwashburn on Aug 13, 2016 14:35:48 GMT
When All Quiet first came out I was happy that the figure ratio with the infantry was 1 to 1. One figure represented one man. But I must admit that I've been rethinking this lately. I've been writing my novels about the Great Martian War and I've been dealing with large bodies of troops: regiments, brigades, divisions and corps. This is way beyond the scale of a typical All Quiet game. So I've been rethinking the ratio for the infantry. It's really the infantry where the problem lies. In our games we have way too much artillery and armor for the numbers of infantry. An infantry division might have one or two battalions of tanks attached. One of our games often has a battalion of tanks and less than a company of infantry. Not too surprising, of course: tanks are more fun to play with  And painting up all the infantry that would be required would be a real chore (and expense). So anyway, I'm thinking that the typical US infantry unit which has 3 stands with five figures on each ought to represent a platoon rather than the squad that it currently does. This would give us a 1 to 3 ratio of figures to actual men. So three of these platoons (nine stands), plus a machine gun unit would represent a full infantry company. Put three of those together (27 stands), plus a weapons company of some sort and you have a battalion. Note that this doesn't affect the game at all. Everything works the same. But it just has a better feel, at least in my opinion. |
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Post by boxholder on Aug 13, 2016 16:39:35 GMT
Good points. I had not thought much about figure scale.
In general, I just considered this game to be a small section of a larger action. These guys just happened to have gotten more support or been luckier with their positioning than their comrades.
Whatever works. It is all good!
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Post by hardlec on Aug 16, 2016 2:31:02 GMT
I think all the pieces fit in your logic, Scott.
On the table, a battalion is a big unit. On a strategic map, a regiment is a small unit.
Infantry is hard to use effectively. My experience with other games is that by being able to get results with infantry, I had a big advantage.
In "reality" however, infantry becomes more expensive than other units in terms of dollars per point. Then comes the issue of mounting and painting all those troops.
Add the difficulty most people have using infantry, and you get the situation where most players opt for other options.
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Post by dartfrog on Aug 16, 2016 8:59:58 GMT
Coming from a more traditional wargames background I always changed the ratio of PBIs. I use 15mm figures for my inf with 10 figures representing a platoon of 40 or so men. So 3 bases of 3 figures with one officer figure is my platoon. (I use them for other games too) works out as around 1:4.
So most games the minimum PBIs I'd field would be a company. I also having changed some rules allow a single MG(or man carried Anti tripod gun, as the rules for these are the same for me but gives me some fun figures to convert and paint) to be attached to each company. Then add company HQ (command base) and sometimes a telephone spotter unit and despatch runner team.
So a company will be about 150 men. 36 figures. Forgot points cost for a company is around 140 pts off top of my head.
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 16, 2016 14:45:54 GMT
As I struggled with the scale of the battles from Scotts first book, I came up with a rule for handling the infantry - see my two OOBs from his book for details. In a way I like the scotts solution the best. Applied to Brits as well. My only nagging thought is about the area the unit takes up - currently 3 stands of infantry occupy at minimum a 100 mm x 60 mm front. The frontage of the 1 to 3 unit is fine, 100 mm but that lack of 40 mm is a small problem for those AoE attacks. It also becomes a major issue if the platoon in question is in a line formation, all elements at maximum distance from each other (2"/50 mm ec). Do you do the awkward representation of marks or some such to show where this platoon can be attacked alone its front?? A morale surviving casualties also is an issue. One idea would be to have a platoon be a stand of 5 figures and an additional two figures mounted on 20 mm squares. These figures would be to denote the 'ends' of a platoon in line or one behind to order to demonstrate a 'column' formation of 100 mm x 60 mm depth, thus allowing a good visual representation of the size of the platoon frontage or depth without the large number of figures. It also allows easy visual reference to that all important linkup of two platoons side-by-side, a common attack point to break infantry lines. Note that this is very important in trenches and other fortifications when morale starts to falter. I'll repost the rule I used here in a couple of minutes.
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 16, 2016 15:05:09 GMT
Here is the rule I worked out for Scotts battles in 1908 New Mexico. I think I like the 'Platoon' mentioned above better, as long as you include those 'boundary' figures to keep the size frontage/depth correct for AoE and assault/trench actions.
Battalions Special Rule: Each USA infantry formation on the board can take 3 'hits' before its actually taken off the table. An infantry formation includes any Infantry Squad, any Infantry HQ Squad, and any MG Squad. You can track this by any method you prefer - written lists, colored 'fluff' balls, chits, odd sided dice (non 6s or over size/undersized 6s from the size you're rolling for the game). Once a given Squad has taken its third hit, its removed from the table. Any morale check is then rolled as normal, with the minus appropriate to the loss. So Co. A of the 1st battalion is in position and taking hits. The 3rd Squad takes 2 hits. No problem, its marked with 2 losses. The 3rd Squad again takes a hit and now forces a roll on Morale with a -1 due to its losses For The Entire Company. If it fails, Co. A will rout as per the usual rolls; note that if its HQ is intact, it may use an order per normal rules to attempt to rally. If its HQ is destroyed or if it loses another full squad, it is destroyed as per pages 43-44 rules. As there are so many order counters for the USA, the HQ destroyed is an attempt to balance the problem of so many order tokens to spare. For the Cavalry, each Troop (Company) represents (2) Squadrons of (3) Squads each. For those, just give each Squad 2 hits without anything special HQ situation. In other words, once a cavalry unit routs, it can be 'reformed' by an order token or by the final roll at the tables edge.
Whichever solution you use, you should apply it to all such actions regarding very large commitments of troops. The additional advantage to this ratio'd forces rule(s) is that your club or games store/convention group can actually field all the units.
More to come
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Post by dartfrog on Aug 16, 2016 15:29:07 GMT
Base size is not an issue at all for us. I'm providing all the infantry so mine are based on the small size FOW bases. I feel the British gamers seem to take a more free and easy approach to rules and I've never had any problems. Maybe people are more competitive in play than us. Usually involves hoots of die human scum zzap zzap. Or demented Brexit shouts of anti Martian bayonet waving madness . I do like the sound of the hit system you mentioned above though. Might try it out at Mondays game. |
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 16, 2016 15:35:50 GMT
Whilst doing this Ratio thing, I also came across my solution to multiple batteries. Basically, the 2:1 ratio can be applied to artillery as well. Here is the rule: You may either field the entire FA compliment or use the following for your artillery - Multiple Battery Rule: all FA gun batteries represent twice the number of guns on the table. The battery of the day were made up of 4 guns (elements) each and there are a total of 8 batteries for this battle. Rather than try and field all 8, you may double up the number of hits a given battery gives and takes - in other words, when firing a given battery, roll twice for each gun, representing 8 not 4 guns. For each hit a given battery takes, only remove one gun (element) when that unit has taken 2 hits. Track the hits with some form or marker or on paper if need be. The result will be having each battery represent the total guns in the book without having all 8 battery present. I would think that with a store group or club, it would be possible to have all 8 batteries on the table. If you can't make 8 use this 2:1 approach to insure you've got the firepower & hits needed. The above should be errata'd on two points. First, you roll one die for a given battery to hit and then twice for each gun in the battery when a hit is achieved. If you do have all 8 batteries on the table, just roll the normal 1 die to hit and the number of die for the elements of a given battery (4 in this case). As an extension of this in the more 'modern' 1909 plus timeline, you use a 3:1 representation for a battery. Vola! you've increased your number of batteries from one to three! In other words, one gun on the table equals 3 guns firing. This is only for regular 3 element batteries btw - no you don't have but 1 element battery AT guns. (hmmm you could use a 'battery' of ATs, but you're better off with three separate rolls as individual units). So, you take your FA battery, currently represented by 3 guns, and put 1 on the table to represent a full battery - roll one die to hit as usual, but if a hit is achieved, roll 3 die to represent the 3 guns. Of coarse loses will reduce this if the unit survives morale rolls. I suggest some sort of marker to indicate the physical boundary of the battery so that attacks/AoE style shots aren't penalized by not having the physical 3 models on the table. An ammo carrier only adds 1 die as normal for the weapon system. See page 103 for the 'munitions carrier'. You should make any adjustments to the BEF forces as needed - note that their infantry squads are 2 element not 3; as are the USA Armored Infantry. Also note that all cavalry and the Rough Riders, use the aforementioned cavalry ratio. Again the adjustments for TX units are similar based on the normal elements of each unit. The large motorcycle units are treated as 3:1 infantry or as infantry if using scotts ratios. This whole idea could be further expanded to include all multi-element units; in effect tripling the size of a battle. The importance of using markers of some sort (1/4" or 1/8" colored cotton balls or some other colored code system) can't be stressed enough. The advantage to this system is particularly nice for those just starting out to do larger battles with just a starter set of figures. I doubt that this can be expanded to include the Martian side however. The tripods just don't lend themselves to this system. However, a case could be made on using this for the various drone/lobototon squads. To show and example, I'll do a battle using the scotts ratio system for a starter box next time |
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 17, 2016 13:36:44 GMT
Okay, please see the OOB page for a series of new battle lineups using the above ratio system. I went kinda crazy on it as not only can a lot be done with just the starter box figures but also with just a single purchase for each side giving you a nice series of battles through the timeline of AQ. I'll post these after I check one further item. Note that these OOBs all require you to use unit boundaries per the above discussion to delineate units. Any number of markers will do, just be consistent with them. One important note - if using Paper Terrain for your modeling, do not ratio those elements. His MG, Gun Turrets, etc. are Always counted on a 1:1 ratio. You certainly get enough with his packs to not need to double or triple these.
PS: the sole exception is his new Bergess-Dunne airplane; as per the Aircraft rules this model represents 3 aircraft per figure.
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And painting up all the infantry that would be required would be a real chore (and expense).
