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Post by madmorgan on Aug 5, 2016 1:38:45 GMT
I've made a few errors on this forum before. But, this one is almost unforgivable. On page 88, the first unit is the MG squad. Not HMG! I've been calling them HMGs for years - incorrectly. Not only that, but I've done numerous list of 'new', add-on, style units based on this misnomer. Most will be understandable. It doesn't change the LMG (Lewis) in the hierarchy of Machine-guns. As I flip through the rule book, I find all those refs that I stated as "HMG" are actually MG notations. So my design of the M2HMG (the 50 cal) should actually be called an 'HMG'. Thus the three machine-gun trilogy is LMG, MG, HMG, representing the Lewis, the Maxim/Vickers, and the 50 cal. (as well as other 12.7 mm + MG). Portability, caliber of round, in game Power rating, range, and of coarse number of crew all define these various weapons. I apologize for this really horrible error from a person whose be honored by being made a moderator for the Living Rule Book among other things. I can only say that over the coarse of the next few weeks I'll attempt to 'fix' this error in the various materials I've submitted. After all, MG isn't 'miss spelled' by this stupid spell check bot.
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Post by tenchuu on Aug 5, 2016 1:39:50 GMT
Burn the heretic!
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Post by boxholder on Aug 5, 2016 2:01:47 GMT
Don't worry too much, mad. Sometimes it is not truly clear-cut.
The poster child for this is the German WW-II MG-34. Nominally, it was a light machine gun with 75 round saddle-drum magazines and a bipod mount. Same gun as a medium machine gun, it used belted ammo from boxes to provide greater rate of fire for longer times and had spare barrels with an asbestos glove to quickly change out. As a heavy machine gun, it used a large stabilizing tripod along with spare barrels and belted ammo. Same gun, different accessories = LMG, MMG, HMG
Besides, during the WW-1 era, most of the machine guns would be considered heavy today, what with water cooling and massive tripods.
You are doing a great job!
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 5, 2016 10:22:32 GMT
Ty folks for the support. I will also note that the British gun is the "Vickers-MG", different weapon as was based on the Maxim but made to be lighter with improvements. Thus, the USA MG squad moves at 4" and the BEF moves at 6" - the Brits always more nimble than their USA counterparts it seems. Yes, I've seen the whole thing on the MG-34 as I was a gamer for several decades before AQ. And a player of Avalon Hills 'Squad Leader'. Good stuff.
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 5, 2016 12:23:33 GMT
Ah, whilst doing up stuff for the Army Builder, I figured out Why I'd started using the 'HMG' tag for what were MG in the rules. The pdf set has all the tanks with 'HMG' for their stats. Okay, at least I had a basis for the error.
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Post by boxholder on Aug 5, 2016 12:31:18 GMT
Since the tank mounted gun is stable and has an almost unlimited supply of ammo (in game terms), it more closely resembles a HMG in its function. Again, the MG34 was mounted on tanks as secondary weapon and AA.
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Post by scottwashburn on Aug 5, 2016 18:21:37 GMT
Of course in All Quiet terms the 'heaviness' of the machine gun takes on greater importance. In the WWII examples like the MG-34/42 the difference between light, medium and heavy was strictly rate of fire and stability of the mount. In All Quiet, the strength rating of the weapon is of paramount importance. While a heavy machine gun has a chance to damage an undamaged tripod, a medium or light MG does not.
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Post by boxholder on Aug 5, 2016 20:02:14 GMT
Then there is a problem with the definition. All of the "heavy machineguns" of the era fired rifle cartridges, 30 cal more or less, just lots of them.
Of course, the Germans were relatively unsportsmanlike and fielded tungsten-cored armor piercing bullets, but they were still rifle caliber rounds.
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Post by scottwashburn on Aug 5, 2016 22:58:17 GMT
The famous 'Ma Deuce" Browning 50-caliber was designed in 1922 as an anti-tank gun. I'm assuming that the All Quiet HMGs are something like that.
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Post by boxholder on Aug 6, 2016 12:44:40 GMT
That is true.
It is equally true that the real world definition of "heavy" changes depending on the timeframe being studied.
As gamers, we are blessed with being able to define HMG for the scenario and go with it for gameplay. And the figures do not necessarily have to match perfectly as long as everybody knows what is being represented. (This prevents the GW syndrome from setting in.)
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 7, 2016 9:54:42 GMT
Good discussion above. I've went with the LMG (Lewis, low rate of fire) MG (game terms Maxim & Vickers), and now HMG for the 50cal and other larger caliber MG. The Lewis is man portable, fires at a 20" range, at RF 2, 2 crew and has a + 1 power. I'm considering lowering it to a range of 15". The MG we all know stats on (for new folks Rng 20" +1 Pow RF 3 - 3 crew. The HMG has range 30" +2 Pow RF 3 and requires 3 crew to maintain that RF; all crew served drop their RF by 1 per missing crewman; so a MG with 2 crew has a RF of 2. I'll be back.
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Post by hardlec on Aug 7, 2016 19:48:56 GMT
The M2H2, "Ma Deuce" .50 caliber machine gun was designed in 1918 as an anti-tank weapon, but not "issued" in WWI as the allies were afraid of the Germans copying it. The BAR was also available for use in WWI but not released. The Allies felt they had the weapons they needed and that desperate Germans would get more of an advantage than they would. Browning's weapons proved highly valuable in WWII. I'd much rather carry a BAR than an M16 or a SAW. A heavy fast bullet is more accurate than a light fast bullet.
Firing an H2M2 is quite a rush. There was a range I went to that would let you shoot one at the cost of $5.00 per round. A 50 round belt would be $250.00 and too much for me, but every time I went there I heard the unmistakeable sound of "Ma Deuce" doing her deeds. My Uncle Sam paid for me to shoot the M2H2.
Some authorities assign the value of heavy, medium and light MG to the number of crew needed to operate and carry the gun, the stand, the water jacket and tank (if used) and the ammo. I cannot stress enough that what makes a machine gun effective is the ammunition supply, and ammunition is heavy. A bigger crew means a more stable platform: tripod vs. bipod vs. hand held. A bigger crew means a higher SUSTAINED rate of fire with the ability to change barrels etc. and fire thousands of rounds without jamming. Scott has persuaded me that the MG in AQMF is a .50, as a rifle caliber weapon would not get a +1, no matter how fast it fired.
I'm pretty tolerant of spelling errors in this day and age. Autocorrect is my enema.
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 8, 2016 10:20:21 GMT
I agree that IRL the MG should probably be a 50 caliber. It was designed to penetrate armor and thus the +1 power. However, this is AQ and the whole idea is to have a range of weapon types to take on the invaders. If we can accept the 'Mars Pattern Rifle' the Armored Infantry carry (+1 Power), why not rifle caliber armor-piercing rounds?? I see the logic - the Mars rifles are 50 or 75 caliber weapons and thus it makes sense that the standard Maxim/Vickers is a 50 caliber weapon. But, that said, the Maxim and Vickers were 30 caliber weapons historically. I guess its a matter of taste in this case. The MG range I set out was to let folks use a variety of weapons in various regular and militia units, as well as on board ships and aircraft. The weight of the MG as a 50 cal would be prohibitive to use on the light frames of the AQ1900s flying machines for the most part. Dirigibles could handle them I'm sure. I felt that anything 12.7 mm or better should be more powerful on the table than the +1 you get for a regular MG. That way you could have other nationalities as well with their 'heavy' mg, like the Russian 14.5 mm or even the 20 mm guns of the Germans. For now, I will give a nod of correctness to the +1 Power MG is a 50 caliber as a logical indication. But, I prefer the flexible three tier MG that go the gauntlet of light, medium (standard), and heavy.
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Post by hardlec on Aug 9, 2016 14:47:27 GMT
Perhaps we need to remember this is a game, and that in Reality Mars never invaded.
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 10, 2016 11:11:53 GMT
I'm not so sure that Congress wasn't taken over by them - but, yes, its a game after all. And the rules are certainly not set in stone. TY for keeping me 'real' hardlec, I always find you to be a calming affect on my malestrum of a mind.
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