|
|
Post by madmorgan on Jul 31, 2016 13:18:06 GMT
I've been working on a German invasion of North Africa set in the Benghazi area. One of the things that has come up is the vast superiority of the human factions with regards to their naval power. As seen in my Lettow and GEF articles, the power of one heavy ship can swing things dramatically in AQ. This is highlighted by my recent work on the actual assault on Benghazi, as I'd planned to have a naval supported German Marine landing at the town itself. The Martians would have a few tripods, drones, but most importantly lots of static defenses including my own interpretation of an Overseer Tower. Basically the Overseer Tripod, without movement. Of coarse you could also envision Dominator Towers as well. Point to all this chatter is that I was working out the various ranges for ship vs towers and found that the human could basically stand off and blow the Martians apart. See the following calculations using my Ship thread: Weapon 1/600 Range 1/2400 Range Heavy Heatray 5" 1" Sungun 10" 2.5" 4" Gun 15" 3.5" 18 " Rocket 10" 2.5"
As can be see above, the ships can stay out of range of even the Sungun by sitting 15"/3.5" offshore. There is no need to close - but, if they would to use the rockets, only the Sungun could get off a shot (though a good one!).
Okay that said, I looked at sending squads of Hover drones after the ship (flying over water). Moving at 6" per phase, they'd cover 2" a turn in 1/600 and 1/4" a turn in 1/2400. The range of their Light Heatray is 10", so they need to close to at least 2" in 1/600 and 1/2" in 1/2400 to start shooting. Mind you, the ship has five 4" guns to train on this effort. With just three of those, the ship has a barrage of 3" at a +3 power. A full broadside would show 4" template with +11 power - can you say dead drones before they even get off shore! The power of oceanic navy is awesome and dwarfs the riverine stuff by loads. No wonder the battle for New Orleans went badly for the Martians - combined river and sea power puts the whole Martian armor superiority to bed. Game over!
This begs the question as to why any major power, especially the British, would lose any battle close to the coast. Even with second line ships out of Cairo or Alexandria, the Brits should be able to hold the coast, forcing the Martians on a wide swing to get to their locations. This is very important if we look at the crossing of the Suez Canal. With fleet assets, the British could probably hold the line at the Suez, with support of the navy at Port Said and the Red Sea. I don't purpose that they could of held Cairo. But, I'm doing a scenario with the canal as the point of attack, showing a north and a south end assault. It should provide an interesting look at the problems facing the Martians with regard to human sea power. Next is research on the size of the canal and how to display it on the tabletop. Needless to say, one has to question whether sea power is too overbearing for the game to handle - are we to have to fight only those battles that are out of range of naval guns? With the USA geography, a large number of cities are coastal in nature. The major Martian offensives would be limited to taking out natural resources - a worthy task as long as its area away from navigable waters. Food for thought my friends.
Cheers!  |
|
|
|
Post by scottwashburn on Jul 31, 2016 14:43:20 GMT
Wait until you read Book 2 of my novel! There's a major battle on the coast of Venezuela where German and US naval forces seriously kick butt! |
|
|
|
Post by boxholder on Jul 31, 2016 15:42:57 GMT
The outcome of several recent AARs points to artillery as a key for the prey that stings--and can do so from a long way off. This is especially true when a layered defense is presented. The big IF is can the artillery have enough time to chomp on Martians before they can close the range.
|
|
|
|
Post by hardlec on Aug 7, 2016 23:17:37 GMT
Sorry to wait so long.
Historically, two elderly and obsolete battleships, the USS New York and the USS Texas, earned lasting glory by their ability to support ground troops.
The Texas destroyed an entire brigade of a Panzer Division by using counter-flooding to add range. There's no hole deep enough to hide in when the 14 inch shells start to fall.
In Korea, the NKA accused the US of using nuclear weapons when the USN used the 16 inch guns of their Battleships. During Korea, the US had 10 battleships each carrying 9 16 inch guns, each gun unleashed a over a ton of hurt with each shot.
Some of you may remember my short story: "The Battle of the Savoy'" where the defenders of Singapore coordinated the power of battleships in the harbor to destroy Martians. I think that story needs a re-write.
Naval guns as a rule are more powerful than than land artillery. Just being on the beach while a salvo of 16 inch guns goes over is an uncanny experience. The Missouri was still in service when I was. I felt the roar of those guns. Awesome is faint praise.
I would not hesitate to say that no Martian wants to get within 10 miles of an ocean. Considering Theodore Roosevelt's thoughts on Battleships, he probably has several in the Great Lakes. So no martian wants to get within 10 miles of the Great Lakes.
|
|
|
|
Post by scottwashburn on Aug 8, 2016 0:57:58 GMT
Yes, no doubt that human naval vessels can outclass even the fearsome Martian war machines! They do just that in my next novel! However, any battleships on the Great Lakes will have to be built there (and they will be). At the time of the Great Martian War, the only canal from Lake Ontario to Lake Erie (and to the rest of the lakes) could only handle a ship 270 feet long. Destroyer or light cruiser size. A canal able to handle a battleship wasn't built until 1932. In the AQ world that might happen soon, of course. |
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Aug 8, 2016 10:38:24 GMT
Oh most excellent info on the Great Lake canal situation thank you! I'll have to reassess my Great Lake naval operations - fortunately I use a lot of 'updated' ACW riverine paddlewheels and the like for that support. But a DD or CL have some great guns already (5" to 8" depending) and in the WW1 era there were almost 'boardsides' of the those. Yes, the coastlines and some rivers belong to the humans. Although the logical Martians would probably be working on a 'missile' tripod using the basis of the Dominator system to project a larger guided missile to an off shore target. Shudder!
|
|
|
|
Post by scottwashburn on Aug 8, 2016 14:05:26 GMT
Actually, one of the most effective weapons the Martians would have against warships would be the Black Dust. If they deployed a long-range missile like what they had in the H.G. Wells novel they could blanket a whole ship (even a whole task force!) with a cloud of the stuff and unless the ships were designed with some sort of system which would seal off all openings on a few second's notice, they could be in big trouble. No way all those men down in the 'black gang' could be wearing anti-dust gear!
|
|
|
|
Post by tenchuu on Aug 9, 2016 0:57:17 GMT
Were sealing bulkward doors only added by WWII to ships?
|
|
|
|
Post by scottwashburn on Aug 9, 2016 1:40:11 GMT
I think they were used earlier than that, although WWI and earlier battleships seemed to be extremely vulnerable to underwater explosions, several being sunk by a single torpedo or mine, so maybe not. But sealing up all the ways air can get into the ship is going to be tough. Especially since many ships used a "forced draft" system to suck large amounts of air down into the engine room to keep the boiler fires hot. But in the Wells novel the Martians themselves used steam to clear away the black dust, so perhaps some sort of system to create a 'steam curtain' around ships using their own boilers could somehow lessen the dust threat.
|
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Aug 9, 2016 11:26:37 GMT
Very interesting discussion. Two things come to mind - the use of a steam cloud similar to a smoke screen and the use of the Grenadier modified to fire the new Black Dust Missile. I've still not got my head around how to work the whole Martian missile battery thing. I figure that a missile the size of the ones on a Dominator would be okay, as they're firing AoE black dust. Maybe cross over to the Viral Drone size weapon system - a "Missile Drone". Still chewing on this bone. I think a drone like system vs tripod makes more sense as to have a tripod devoted to just missiles seems wasteful. The drone would look more like a Sniper version, perhaps altering the look of a Sniper will do, with a large missile along the former railguns length? No, I think it should probably more a Shock drone footprint - a feeder with lots of small, long range missiles. An alternate idea is that the Martians can't develop guided missiles for those ranges quickly, so they have a Rocket Drone instead that fire a volley of black dust rockets at the ships. These would have a minimum and maximum range, as they'd be overpowering in a tabletop battle. Of coarse, that might be okay too - each rocket has a barrage strength of 1. Usual salvo is 3 or 4. Maybe more. Indeed this could be a 2nd Generation designed drone, an upgrade on the Shock drone, capable of firing shock or black dust rockets with the usual accuracy problems. As the curve of the earth would have a major effect at these ranges, Scouts couldn't 'target' these volleys. But, this 2ndGen drone would be terrible on the tabletop against regular land targets, allowing a blanket of black dust or lots of shock put down on a target. With a standard squad of three, this could easily overwhelm a trench line or take out a number of tank/artillery targets. Would have to 'point' it accordingly. This might lead to a 2ndGen Grenadier as well - with better range and perhaps (shudder) a self targeting feature. Okay, I'm rambling - this has a lot of possibilities and bodes poorly for the human cause.
|
|
|
|
Post by GarageBay9 on Aug 9, 2016 14:41:18 GMT
(sorry, accidental double post)
|
|
|
|
Post by GarageBay9 on Aug 9, 2016 14:42:06 GMT
Actually, a steam driven positive atmospheric pressure system with a filtered air supply intake would probably be simpler. Dust can't get in very well if air is always slightly leaking out of most holes in the ship at a few PSI.
|
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Aug 10, 2016 11:14:42 GMT
Yes, the 'positive' airflow system would work. I just wonder when that came to be - remember that I try to cut off new inventions for AQMF at 1925 or there abouts. It would be a better system if humans could master the tech for it. Some of our more engineer inclined on this forum show pro/con this idea. |
|
|
|
Post by scottwashburn on Aug 10, 2016 16:29:55 GMT
Engineering a system like that would not be easy. You'd have to take in huge amounts of air and somehow keep any dust from coming in with it. Then distribute it to every part of the ship where there was a danger of dust getting in. And it couldn't just be a few PSI in pressure because you have a ship travelling forward at up to twenty miles an hour creating its own breeze (in addition to any natural breeze) that would be trying to force air (and dust) into the ship. I think it would need to be combined with some sort of automated shutter system. At battlestations, all exterior doors and portholes would be shut and then other places like lookout platforms, range-finding stations, and of course, the bridge where people need to look out would have to be sealed up somehow with only the minimum openings. Even the gun positions would need to be sealed off somehow. In the event of a dust attack they would have to be automatically sealed. And THEN after the attack you'd need special teams with protective clothing and steam lines to clear away all the dust which would have settled on the ship before any of those doors or windows can be opened again. All in all, it is a real challenge.
|
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Aug 11, 2016 11:51:16 GMT
Yes, I agree that its really a little to above board to work well. Especially with the somewhat limited tech of the AQ period. With what Scott describes as a working example, its also almost too 'elite' an operation. Try doing that on a say 3000 point scale and you've got a major project, on a battlefield no less, and major prep time for the next operation. I'd think that maybe a very small company of tanks from say Pattons regiment might, just might, do all this - but, I can't see it managed for long due to the pace of operations. The best counter to gas/dust attacks is to take out the firer. Whether that is an Assault tripod or a Grenadier (with artillery or airplanes), if its down it won't be firing dust.
|
|
