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Post by madmorgan on May 20, 2016 10:08:02 GMT
Whislt pondering the points for the new S2G armor (see my thread on TO&E for same), I had mentioned that perhaps a different 'point' system might be used for AQ/GMW - one where the BPs are the basis of all 'pointing' systems as well as the order tokens determination. This concept is an infant at the moment, but, wanted to get the forum collective wheels turning. Up to this point (sic), we've been stuck in the point system devised by AQ and frankly used by most non-historical battle games (meaning not a battle of history but one of fictional nature based in a historical period). The biggest question for using BPs vs Points is one of value of a given unit. An Overseer is certainly worth more that a Scout on the table, but currently the BP is 1 for both. With our moving to a Living Rulebook, especially in the Optional section (an maybe a new title for Our game ei Great Martian War, GMW), it seems that maybe we should reexamine the whole 'unit' point system. Is this worth the time to type?? Let me know.
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Post by mikedski on May 20, 2016 11:31:17 GMT
BP?
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Post by terrance on May 20, 2016 17:56:51 GMT
BP=Break Point, I assume. I understand the use of Break Point or Morale failure as an important part of scenario design, especially for tournament oriented players. But the arbitrary nature of "you break at 50% loses" and the use of the same value for all combatants has always bothered me. Armies break when they think they can no longer win, and that point can be much less or much more than 50% loses. I would like to see some sort of army morale value that could vary with scenarios and combatants. And I agree, loss of different units should affect the decrease in morale differently, depending on how critical they are seen to the fighters. So I am right there with you, Madmorgan. I just don't have a system to propose right now.
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Post by boxholder on May 20, 2016 21:48:58 GMT
You might consider using the point cost for the units involved to establish the break point. That is, when the units destroyed equal half of the initial cost, the break point is reached. This way large, high-value units that are destroyed or routed do more damage to the morale side than the loss of cheaper, more common or more numerous units. One attraction of the AQMF design was the simplicity and not having to fiddle with morale rules per se.
This does not add much to the record-keeping burden since you will have already calculated the cost of the units for your side. A running total on scratch paper will do it.
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Post by madmorgan on May 21, 2016 8:13:33 GMT
Ah, well my original idea was to do away with a point system for the game, reducing things to BPs only. Units are rated according to their BP and order tokens are assigned by breakpoint vs points. As I type this, I realize that this would be a major overhaul of the system, whereas boxholders idea of going the other way with the points being used to determine the breaking point of units might be a better way to go. I was just trying to reduce the whole thing to one number not two (Points/BP).
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 25, 2016 10:55:19 GMT
Further development has resulted in the following formula - Number of Units/2 = BP. BP-1 = number of Order Tokens. Remember that flivvers and lobototons do not count towards BP, so you have a BP being based on combat units. It would be easy to assign higher BP to special/large unit types (Goliath, LIC, Dominator, Overseer, etc). As an example, USA vs MARs forces each at 500 points would have a BP around 3, with 2 Order Tokens. But it all comes down to whats on the table after the smoke clears. In support of boxholders idea, you could also adjust the break point by adjusting the percentage. Currently forces break at 50%. Using an all points system, you could shift that percentage to reflect the type of troops/situation the human forces are facing. Maybe British break at 60% instead of 50%. Maybe the out-of-state militia (being all the troops on the table, no locals or regulars) break at 40% or less. The Martians would stay at a flat 50%, although as an option, they might be crazy (Red Martian pod at 70%) or trying to preserve losses (low on Assault replacements, so force breaks on 40%). I like the simple application of this without the somewhat awkward unit count, break point, etc. Bravo boxholder - now needs some play testing out there.
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Post by terrance on Jul 25, 2016 20:52:50 GMT
I like the idea of some units costing multiple breakpoints. I seems logical that knocking out a LIC would be more demoralizing than losing a unit of MkIIs.
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Post by seydlitz on Jul 26, 2016 0:08:05 GMT
Now to stir the mud in the water..... I think Boxholder's idea that break point calculation should be based on total points is better than the BP number as stated by Morgan. It is also better than the current game's 50% rule because it takes into account in an indirect way the combat power / game value of individual units as well as the likely morale effect their loss would have on the force as a whole. The big issue becomes one of reworking the actual unit point values so they are closer to correct. We already know that some are ridiculously low and others are too high.
The second thing is avoiding a hard mathematically calculated line that tells when an army will break and pack up. This leads to unrealistic choices on the battlefield to force the enemy to cross the line or likewise to avoid crossing the line. An example of the first would be shooting at all of the units that are easiest to kill regardless of their actual combat abilities/effectiveness. For example, killing as many single element units as possible (specialty units like tenders, special tanks, anti-tripod guns, etc.) even when the biggest threat comes from 3 element tank units. Another behavior would be just killing the easy to kill units like infantry in the open, trucks, and other miscellaneous stuff. If I am in a pitched battle in a tank and you start blowing up trucks instead of tanks and I am happy that you are wasting shots on worthless targets.
Another thing with morale is that it shouldn't just be a hard mathematical line that says X casualties and the army collapses. Morale is actually a relative thing. Are you killing or being effective in your fire against the enemy? Are you taking unacceptable casualties without achieving your objective or inflicting comparable pain on the enemy? Armies don't just suddenly break...usually they waiver first, then either recover or break.
I would like to see morale expressed as a sliding relative scale that moves like a tug of war based on the performance of the sides. If it gets to far over to one side, that side starts to waver (maybe stops advancing, harder to pass unit morale checks, etc) and if not restored could lead to the army breaking. Essentially if morale keeps going one way a base chance starts to develop of the army failing morale. This chance would keep increasing if losses kept mounting unless they were "in kind" until the chance of failure reached 100%. Of course, the ability to roll a 10 on 1d10 would still let the force pass morale.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 26, 2016 0:55:16 GMT
See my thread under Living Rulebook tab Optional. I totally embraced the 'all points' morale system as well. Your addition sounds interesting. I'd already jumped to using different percentages for an army based on situational modifiers - for example an all out-of-state militia army (-1 Morale rolls) might have a 40% break point. Example 2000 pts breaks at 800 points in losses. In the case of odd amounts of points or percentage (1085 points for example or 50%) round the amount up 1 point (1086 at 50% breaks at 543), round the points up by one. So even the Martians break point can be less - for example perhaps they are low on Assault replacements so this battle the break point is 40% rather than 50%. And strong armies can be reflected by better percentages - an army that all Elan (French Foreign Legion with its Elan = +1 rolled morale per unit) could be 60%; a 2000 point army break point of 1200 vs the usual 1000. And all Marines force (with Courageous) would be a whopping 70%; a 2000 point Marine army break point of 1400 vs the usual 1000! The jest of your ideas is really good. I worry that it might cause a lot of confusion and its hard to figure out how to show the gradual decline you correctly speak off. I think that using the above method of setting the percentage reflects a simple but unique way of including those things that causes a 'collapse' - after all the game needs a simple conclusion if break points are to be used. More on this later I suppose.
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Post by terrance on Jul 26, 2016 18:41:08 GMT
For me Army Break Points are a good and bad sort of thing. The good is that it makes it easy to set up a quick smash and grab type of game. The bad is that they are most useful (perhaps required) for tournament style games and consequently are a sort of artificial endpoint that needs to be imposed on the game to provide standardization. My favored scenarios are ones in which the players have tactical or strategic goals and these may be different for the two sides. Morale in the form of army break can enter in but is not the primary goal of the players. But these types of scenarios take much more effort to design.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 27, 2016 12:32:39 GMT
Yes, I agreed. I'm going to try and design some more scenarios with objectives at 'all costs' vs usual break point objectives.
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