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Post by madmorgan on Apr 24, 2016 21:45:33 GMT
Hi, I wanted to throw out this thought for all of you to munch on - is there any reason to have 3 crew for machine guns?? I mean, almost any pictures I've seen of machine guns in action have only the gunner and assistant gunner/ammo feeder. When moving, the pictures show the gunner carrying the weapon and the ammo bearer carrying the tripod. The Russians did even better, putting the gun on a wheeled carriage or horse pulled cart like the Polish, the Belgians used dog pulled carriages. If you don't have to have 3 figures on a MG stand, it becomes much easier to handle, as putting 2 figures on a 20x20 mm becomes possible or even 40x40 mm square if you feel the 40 mm target area of the MG should be maintained for game play purposes. In any case, that 3rd figure with the binoculars would look great with artillery units (particularly the ATgun) or HQ formations, even in Mobile Artillery units. Could also be painted up naval for shipboard for supporting Marines. Or just use the Marine version MG one for shipboard. Just saying. You get an additional figure for every HMG stand, a minimum of three just for the ones out of the starter or an MG Squad box. PS: the more I look at the bases used for AQ the more I think it was a deal between AD and Renedra. This also brings to mind that the Rough Riders MG should be treated with a 'Jam on a nautral '1' roll, as there is no one to feed the belt. In this case, if the MG jams, it stays jammed until the bike spends a move phase stationary to unjam it. A colored craft 'ball' marks the 'Jammed' statis - I often use hobby 1/4" colored cotton balls for indicating various status, in this case Orange for 'Jammed'; including things like the Kitchener, etc.  |
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Post by lcpl210 on Apr 24, 2016 22:37:58 GMT
The reason for three people is the heavy MG crew has a gunner, an ammo bearer/ assistant gunner, and the tripod stand carrier. You can see the method in Band of Brothers with the .30 cal MG. you have one paratrooper carrying the weapon, one with the tripod and the last guy carrying the ammo boxes. The tripod can be pretty heavy so a third soldier would carry it and would also pull rear security while the MG is in action.
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Post by loyalist on Apr 24, 2016 23:39:15 GMT
The Khurasan WWI British Maxim HMGs have 5 crew figures - don't know why.
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Post by scottwashburn on Apr 25, 2016 0:47:18 GMT
Machine guns burn through a LOT of ammo very quickly. An HMG would have multiple ammo carriers.
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Post by madmorgan on Apr 25, 2016 9:46:43 GMT
Okay. I get it. How about a rule that if you don't have 3 crew on a MG, its rate-of-fire drops to 2 (ei RF2)?? This gives you an option on mounting your HMG figures as two or three.
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Post by scottwashburn on Apr 25, 2016 9:53:51 GMT
Do we really want to get into that level of detail? Individual figures affecting the stats of an element?
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Post by madmorgan on Apr 25, 2016 9:56:21 GMT
Only as an optional rule - I've done this before with the LMG (Lewis) as both the British and American Old Glory figures have Lewis gunners advancing whilst firing. There, the normal RF2 drops to RF1 due to lack of ammo feeder. Again, this is strictly optional scott, for those who want to mount figures some differently, with it having a game effect.
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Post by mikedski on Apr 25, 2016 10:30:33 GMT
I think that level of detail is not needed. The actual miniatures is more an aesthetic issue. But if you want to modify HMG rules to be more like mini-artillery (no move and shoot same turn) to reflect time to set up and re-supply ammo than I think that is a good discussion.
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Post by terrance on Apr 25, 2016 18:28:22 GMT
I could see something like this being used as a special rule in a scenario. Supply lines have been cut and we are low on ammo sort of situation. Crew is trying to conserve ammunition so RF 2 for machine guns.
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Post by madmorgan on Apr 26, 2016 10:33:46 GMT
Both good ideas as well. I'll mull over it and might post a workup in the optional rules section at some point. The 'no move-to fire' would have a big impact on the tactical use of MG squads. Will mull over all this. Ty both for the input and everyone for pointing out the actual workings of a mg team - my only experience is with the M-60 teams in Nam, and they were easily two man outfits.
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Post by terrance on Apr 26, 2016 17:40:36 GMT
I was also thinking it would make sense that MGs would need a turn to set up after moving. But I know a former officer who commanded machine guns in Iraq and asked him about it. He said they trained to be set up and firing in less than 30 seconds (he told me the exact time but I don't remember it now), and he thought that even with water cooled guns the set up time after moving would be less than a minute. Given the (unstated) time and ground scale, this would be such a small fraction of a turn that I decided not to pursue it.
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Post by hardlec on Apr 26, 2016 20:40:33 GMT
In the old forum I did a post about the difference between a heavy, medium and light machine gun is determined by the number of crew, not the caliber of the weapon.
More crew means (As Scott suggests) MORE AMMO. Schlep a 100 round 7.62 M60 belt for a few minutes and you quickly learn how much ammo weighs. WWI style fabric belts were heavier, especially if they got wet. I'm talking hernia city.
In game terms, there is already an issue with the HMG stats overlapping the 3-inch gun. I love detail and I'd really love to see the H2M2 .50 caliber machine gun in the game, but not at the cost of more complexity.
3 troopers and an MG and the current set-up is good for me.
Madmorgan's ideas, as usual, are fascinating. Maybe someday I'll get to send my Tripods against him. I think I'll die gloriously.
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Post by scottwashburn on Apr 27, 2016 0:15:58 GMT
In my novel (Book 2) we'll see that the HMGs of the game are ALREADY an early version of the 50 cal 'Ma Deuce'. The first US forces to engage the Martians (in Book 1) were armed with 30 cal MGs and they proved almost as useless as the rifles.
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Post by hardlec on Apr 27, 2016 5:41:13 GMT
H2M2, Ma Deuce. Still serving after almost a century.
I carried an M60 machine gun back in my day. The pig was a whole lot of hurt in a small package. Well, a .50 made the M60 look like a water pistol.
I'm not sure if the .50 was ever in a water cooled model, but this is an alternate history after all.
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Post by scottwashburn on Apr 27, 2016 9:54:43 GMT
There were water cooled 50s. Mostly used in the anti-aircraft role.
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