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Post by scottwashburn on Dec 12, 2018 12:41:01 GMT
I am wondering if the Martians were surprised by the presence of coal and oil on Earth? Did Mars (in our All Quiet universe) ever have an environment which could have led to the creation of fossil fuels? Gases created by decomposing organic matter, like Methane, would have been known to them, but possibly not coal or oil. The Martians might have been dependent on burning their equivalent of wood for energy until they were able to start generating electricity from sunlight and eventually nuclear. During their observations of Earth they would not have detected any large solar farms or tell-tale radioactivity from nuclear plants, so they may have been surprised to discover the prey-creatures had other high-energy fuel sources.
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Post by boxholder on Dec 12, 2018 14:08:52 GMT
An interesting question.
I would expect that the Martians to have done some preliminary photo surveys before commiting to an invasion scale effort. Small photo probes could have been sent on "fly-by and return" missions and never been observed by the Earthlings. These would have been invaluable as precursors to establish feasibility of sending larger vehicles and much easier due to smaller size. These probes would have seen unmistakeable signs of large scale industrial activity, particularly steel production, with enormous heat signatures and smoke plumes. The Pittsburgh, Allentown, Bethlehem works, Gary Indiana, and other major urban manufacturing centers at the century turn would have shown that lots of high energy density fuel usage had to be present. They might not know from the probes WHAT is being made, but lots of SOMETHING is. And it uses lots of energy to work metals. Furthermore, during the approach of the invasion cylinders, higher resolution direct visual observations would show more detail of these areas and others, but not necessarily the tanks, trains and other metal products. After landing, encounteri these in large numbers would have confirmed what was being made and that the scale was much larger than the first invasion encountered.
So, I think the Martians would not have been surprised STRATEGICALLY at the scale of energy production and use, particularly after the first invasion attempt.. The presence of large numbers of steel vehicles (tanks, trains, etc) would probably have been unwelcome, but not a terrible surprise during the second. What would be a major TACTICAL surprise would be the rapidity of the response, inventiveness, and adaptation of the prey creatures.
The evolution of Martian technology is fertile ground for speculation. Clearly, they had access to advanced calculation, advanced manufacturing, science and industry able to produce the guns or vehicles used for interplantery flight. The leap from wood to solar and nuclear in one step would beggar belief. Because Mars is about 50% further from the Sun, solar would have been only about 1/2 the energy density as Earth. So solar power installations woudl have to be at least twice as big as corresponding capacity on Earth. Then, going to nuclear would require some large scale development to mine, process, and use nuclear fuels, in addition to reactors. All of these require lots of energy to accomplish and high energy density fuels that are portable. There would have to have been some interim technologies to get to an advanced state.
But, this is a fictional AQMF world. We are not required to have a lot of solid technical background. The story starts "here and now" and develops forward. You can make it be anything you want or need it to be. Backfilling the "history," partiicularly at geological time scales may not be terribly profitable to the story line.
As always: My $0.02 US
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Post by scottwashburn on Dec 12, 2018 15:07:53 GMT
Interesting discussion!
The Martians would have noticed volcanic eruptions on Earth so perhaps they would have thought we were using geothermal (something they may have used themselves in the distant past).
My take on Martian civilization is that it is OLD. Really old. Civilization on Earth goes back 5-7000 years but civilization on Mars goes back hundreds of thousands of years. Human minds can't really grasp stretches of time that long. They had a lot of time to experiment with things.
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Post by hardlec on Dec 27, 2018 5:48:27 GMT
Well:
In the US at the dawn of the 20th century, the energy use of humanity was barely significant compared to today. The night sky of North America would not show a smattering of lights from coast to coast, with the coasts outlined in a necklace of incandescence. A stretch of light from New York to Washington, a couple of specks growing less dence until the West coast. Electric Light was common but not prevalent.
Coal is the most common fuel. Oil is cracked to make kerosene, and gasoline is a waste product being used a little for automobiles. Diesel engines are rare. Steam Turbines are beginning to supplant steam piston engines. Most of the great hydro-electric dams are still on paper only.
The Smog that will choke every city in the country has only begun its reign. No dust bowl. You can eat the fish caught in Lake Erie.
Coal is a product of plants being fossilized. Oil, on the other hand, may be abiotic. It is possible that oil is organic but pre-biological. Hydrocarbons in the atmosphere will not give a Martian survey much of an indication of the level of human technology. A survey of Earth in 1945 will show much more pollution than 1910. By 1980, however, levels will reduce. At least in the US.
From Mars or from a quick survey, the Martians will not know what humans use for fuel. Remember they missed the microbes that stopped the first invasion. Martian prejudice will prevent them from probing deeply enough to learn what fuels are used and how to stop the flow of supply.
It took a short while for Martians to figure out the importance of human railroads. It took humanity even less time to turn back to water travel. It appears only after the defeat at St. Louis have the Martians started to realize that humans are not cows.
Now to the game
Martians will try to raid coal fields which will be tough battles. Open pit coal mines can be quickly converted into nearly impregnable
Martians will try to raid the coal supply lines. Lots of options for running battles.
I wanted to use this as a plot point in a story, but I'll share it here:
The Martians build a new redoubt. It in on a vein of coal.
Massive "Mother of all explosions" both thermobaric and fuel-air, from igniting clouds of coal dust.
For later: moonshine fills our tanks.
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Post by boxholder on Dec 27, 2018 13:47:18 GMT
When the Martians advance into the mountainous coal country, expect a big swing in the nature of operations. Mountains are ambush country as the Martians learned out west trying to stop the New Mexico evacuation. The people who live in them know the country and can act as independent forces, guerilla stye, as well as serve as guides and advisors to Army troops. Hidden bunkers and gun emplacement become more feasible, awaiting advancing attackers. Miners, loggers, and hunters all have useful skills and access to things that can be turned into improvised weapons. Short lines of sight will limit the effective range of heat rays, making close combat more likely and more deadly. Black Smoke and Green Gas may be more useful. Surprise Folorn Hope attack (out of the trees --anywhere, anytime) will likely be more numerous, especially when not needing other troops for concealment. (Rule change might be needed) Vehicles will be less useful, except in unusual settings and along roads in the valleys. Short range, light weight weapons will become more useful.
And mountains will be tough going for the tripods: rockslides, cliffs, caves. Trees and abundant vegetation make concealment easier and detection more difficult.
It will be an entirely different environment from the open plains that they ranged over so freely.
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Post by hardlec on Dec 28, 2018 6:11:14 GMT
While there is some coal in the mountains, most coal is under comparatively shallow overburdens of soil and rock. Most coal is extracted from open pits in the Midwest. While there are many underground mines, they are not much in mountains. Silver is another matter.
When Marvin crosses over a coal mine, it will be like crossing a huge tiger pit, the ground can open and swallow up tripods
I do think that when Marvin gets out of the southwestern deserts the going will get much tougher.
Maybe blips in concealment should be harder to reveal or require the Martians get closer or both.
There will be a rifle behind every blade of grass* There will be a machine gun behind every tree A stove pipe behind every stone
The great plains will become a killing ground The forests traps The mountains mazes of death
And that's the easy part
* Attributed to Admiral Yamamoto
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Post by boxholder on Dec 28, 2018 13:37:47 GMT
Today, most of the tonnage does come from open pit mining.
But, with all due respect, massive open pit mining is an automotive era phenomenon. You can't do it without lots of power equipment and the supporting petroleum infrastructure to fuel the operations. Until that technology exists, underground mining dominated coal production. Look at the mountaninous areas of West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee and the rest of the Appalachians which comprised the coal belt. The primary method was shaft and gallery underground mining. Even the coal fields of the mid west were underground for the early part of the 20th century. As automotive technology enabled equipment large enough and powerful enough to move large amounts of overburden, the competitive cost advantage of open and strip mining eclipsed shaft mining.
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Post by scottwashburn on Dec 28, 2018 21:15:31 GMT
Yes, in the All Quiet period, the vast majority of US coal is coming from Appalachia. Interestingly, the majority of US oil production is coming from that same region, especially Pennsylvania. The Texas and Oklahoma oil fields were just starting to go into large scale production in real life and much of that would be disrupted in our All Quiet world.
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Post by hardlec on Dec 29, 2018 6:28:20 GMT
Pennzoil.
However, in central Illinois they have open pit mines that have been active since before the Great War. I grew up in the Land of Lincoln, my perspective may be warped. My Great Grandfather worked in the mines. The mines used steam shovels and other gear developed for the Panama canal. Gasoline and diesel would replace the coal engines, but they were awesome machines.
Either way, the Martians will not know that much about human fuel sources or logistics. Their arrogance will be their biggest block.
On the other hand, the US may be forced to adapt. Ethanol and Methanol may become more important because some of the Midwestern coal fields have not yet been developed. Texas and Oklahoma are combat zones (qv.)
The "heater" type torpedo is under development. Compressed air is used to spin turbines to power torpedoes. When compressed air expands it cools, often to the point where it freezes up the turbine. So alcohol is used as a fuel to heat the air. Heat adds energy to the turbine. Training torpedoes are reused. It's a short jump to using compressed air as a power source for other vehicles.
There were cases of whole streets vanishing when the tunnels underneath them collapsed. The potential for sappers causing trouble for Marvin is enormous.
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Post by madmorgan on Dec 29, 2018 12:30:33 GMT
Yes, excellent point.
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