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Post by billf on Jul 5, 2016 19:17:02 GMT
To answer your questions,
I sweep every chance I get. You have more stands under the template than a single shot. Sweeping is slightly less powerful, but the extra stands you can kill is worth it.
I never shoot at trenches unless it's the only target. You need a 9/10 to get a hit. I send drones to climb in with them because you get no bonuses for cover in melee. Drones make short work of them, especially scorpions.
I sniff out the humans three ways. At long range all you can do is shoot them. Your tripods are tough, so I move up to reveal them and blast them. Once in awhile you will get hurt, but that's war. Lastly just send in the drones. This is one of their main functions. If some die, they were only drones.
Hope this gives some information
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Post by mikedski on Jul 5, 2016 22:17:57 GMT
Agree on all counts.
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Post by mikedski on Jul 5, 2016 22:22:58 GMT
Next question.
Are scouts with targeter really that necessary to use with grenadiers? Yes better to hit when the scout is available but would it not be better to swap the scout for another grenadier and upgrade a assault tripod with black dust launcher for the 155 points?
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Post by billf on Jul 6, 2016 0:21:58 GMT
I think the targetter is very necessary. If they are in cover you are going to need high numbers to hit. When you add in the idiot factor of the grenadier, the +3 from the scout usually brings it down to a reasonable number. If they are in the open,it turns into a really good number. The fact that the grenadier can reroll misses with shock canisters,makes the targetter combo extremely useful.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 6, 2016 11:39:31 GMT
Hmmm. Good questions. 1) depends on the situation. Focus on a unit that is down to one element. Sweep with a unit that has two of three elements left I would think. 2) No, any time there is a chance to kill an element, use it. Even though its a lucky shot, its better to force a morale check on a unit, then pass up the chance - this is, of coarse, if there isn't a better target (ei. artillery, then tanks). 3)I'd think using Grenadier and/or Shock drones to bombard an blip. Used together, you splat the blip with the Shock fire, then hammer the resulting exposed unit with the Grenadier. I prefer to have at least two 'batteries' of Grenadier/Shock Drone combinations on the table. Add a duo of targeter armed Scouts and it gets even better.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 6, 2016 11:43:59 GMT
As I just read the two other replies, I have to agree that drones are the answer to trenches and ambushes. I would never send a tripod in against an ambush - that +4 To hit +4 Power attack has a good chance of damaging the tripod enough for the ambush unit to finish the job. Especially if you're using the New Artillery Rules, which allow guns of 4" or less to be an ambush unit. A battery of 4" guns (or 3.5" AT guns) at close range can ruin your tripods day.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 6, 2016 11:45:14 GMT
As to the Scout w/targeter question - there is no doubt in my mind that the Scout is much more effective with the backing of Grenadiers and Shock Drones, than a 10" range Black Duster that might never get used.
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Post by mikedski on Jul 6, 2016 12:55:02 GMT
As to the Scout w/targeter question - there is no doubt in my mind that the Scout is much more effective with the backing of Grenadiers and Shock Drones, than a 10" range Black Duster that might never get used. Agree with the utility of the scout but is the scout an overall liability to the Martian force? Weaker armor and it has to get in range of most human weapons to do its job. Personally, I like the scout just for the variety it brings to the table top and the scout/grenadier combo firing black dust has no equal. I'm just thinking that maybe an additional grenadier firing in idiot mode is better than just having one grenadier or two firing in smart mode.
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Post by easye on Jul 6, 2016 14:33:05 GMT
I find the Scout very useful in games where getting across the table matters. They can really hoof it and that limits the amount of fire they have to take. however, this only works if you have a good number of them so firepower concentration is dispersed.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 7, 2016 12:47:02 GMT
Good points all. Lets remember the use of the tripod - Scouts aren't really meant for heavy combat duties, they uses are for recon and disruption effects.
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Post by terrance on Jul 12, 2016 17:43:37 GMT
Seems odd that the only Martian tactic is keep fingers crossed and not get blown up. Attention. Attention. Thread jacking in progress. Please cooperate and this will end peaceably : 1) is it better to sweep when you have a chance than a focused heat ray? 2) are Martians wasting their time trying to heat Ray anything in trenches? 3) what is the best way to uncover stealthy humans? Take pot shots at decoy tokens from a distance or get within 6 inches and get a clean shot at anyone exposed? Putting some numbers to the sweep vs focus question. I think it depends on whether you are firing at tanks or infantry, and this calculation ignores effects of cover. Martian has a heavy heat ray; power is focus +4; sweep +3.
For a MK II tank Defense is 4, so 70% chance of a hit. Armor is 8. Focus: +4 power makes it 4 or better to damage, so 49% chance of killing a tank with a focus shot. Sweep: +3 power makes it 5 or better to damage. Chance of killing at least one tank is 42%. Chance of killing 2 tanks is 25% and chance of killing all 3 tanks is 15%.
So sweep or focus depends a bit on your point of view. Focus gives a slightly higher chance of killing a tank, but you might take the position that the sweep gives you three slightly lower chances of killing at least one tank and you might get lucky.
For infantry Defense is 5, so 60% chance of a hit. Armor is 4. Focus: +4 power makes it an auto hit except that natural ones are always misses, so 90% chance of killing a stand. Sweep: +3 power makes it 1 or better to kill but the 1 is still a miss, so again 90% change of killing one stand. Chance of killing 2 stands is 49% and change of killing all 3 stands is 44%.
So I always sweep infantry. Same change of killing at least one stand as a focus attack and pretty good odds on taking out at least one more. I would also sweep if you can get a tank(s) and infantry in the one shot. Most of the time I will sweep tanks, unless I have multiple tripods firing on the unit when I might use focus attacks to increase the odds of destroying some tanks. Cover changes the equation and focus becomes much better, unless you have green gas or black dust available. That is my preference against humans in cover.
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Post by hardlec on Jul 17, 2016 15:38:47 GMT
Targeter:
According to Von Clausewitz, there are three things artillery must do: Hit the target Hit the target and Hit the target.
The grenadier is inaccurate and needs targeters to function at its maximum potential.
The grenadier is a most useful tripod as it works well (or at least better) against entrenched infantry.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 17, 2016 16:14:55 GMT
All good. Having just played three very different games in the same excellent campaign, I can attest to the following: 1/Scout targeting for Grenadiers can lay waste to a trench line with 'dust' fire. 2/A single Scout 'painting' a unit can allow both Shock and Grenadier of any number to fire on the target. Two scouts can paint a blip, the first revealing it and the second allowing the aforementioned Shock/Grenadier fire to blow it away 3/Once drones get into the trench system, your humans survival is limited. They tend to stay in the trenches (getting protection) whilst rolling up flanks of trench troops left and right. Meanwhile, the tripods advance onto the trench line and proceed to destroy any help from outside the trench, throwing in sweeping shots as needed. Once the drones have routed a couple of units, the tripod moves in on the 2nd move phase and mops up - deadly. 4/Bunch up drones just inside a large woods line,protected from fire, with you Slavers safely inside the woods deep. Then one good push out, with you Slaver moving up, but staying inside the woods as not to be fire at, and the rush of drones will usually overrun the trenches. Once there's a 'safe spot' on the trench line, move your Slaver up against the outside of the trench, allowing it to continue control of the drones whilst getting some protection from the trench line. I had this unfortunate situation happen to my armored infantry - they held out a while, but except for lucky morale rolls, it was curtains for that line. My opponent realized that the usual paint/dust setup won't work on the gas immune troops; so a huge 'charge' of drones took things back under control quickly. Fun fun!
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Post by seydlitz on Aug 17, 2016 23:22:14 GMT
I agree with Morgan's conclusions. Scouts with targeters are very valuable to any force that also has Grenadiers. Keeping the Grenadiers at long range and using the scouts to light up the targets for them is the way to go. You can actually have the scouts hang out beyond rifle/mg range and light up the targets. If the troops are not gas proof (I.e. armored infantry) it will not take very long to clear them out of the trenches. In the case of armored infantry, you can clear everyone else out then send in the scorpion drones to clean them out. Reapers are the controllers to use, and I would also through in a thumbs up for using a dominator with the scout illuminating. You get the targeter bonus on a weapon that has rapid fire 4. Not to mention the two heavy heat rays to sweep. Volume of fire will help offset some of the trench bonuses. The biggest thing for the Martian player is not to just bum rush even in a turn limited game. Use your superior range to protect your forces until you have whittled the enemy down. Every turn that you can kill some of the enemy and/or make them take morale checks is critical. Their volume of fire drops off as they lose units. Since most of the human success will come from the sheer number of dice being thrown, the best way to win is to manage the engagement range early while you grind them down beyond the range that their infantry and machine guns can engage you. Think about it....
Infantry shoots 15" Armored infantry only shoots 10" Machine guns shoot 20"
By engaging at a range over 20" you control the engagement. With a unit of machine guns (3 elements) that is 9 dice you avoid by engaging at over 20". In fact, you can move forward in the first move phase, shoot, then move back out of range in the second move phase. The humans often get very frustrated when they are taking casualties and can't shoot back.
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Post by madmorgan on Aug 18, 2016 12:35:13 GMT
As always, excellent observations seydlitz. One further kudo for the Scout - its fast enough to act as 'armored cavalry', being able to plow into routing units and destroying them quickly. The triad of Grenadier/Scout with targeter/Shock drone squad is awesome on the table as the Scout Does Not Have A Range limit on its targeter at 30" range. Target a blip, expose with Shock fire, kill with Grenadier fire. For trenches its target, fire gas, assault with Shock if in range (especially to stop MG fire from happening if Mars has initiative). For Gas Immune, again its target, Grenadier shock shells, and Shock assault, as they can kill Armored/Assault Infantry just as well as any other drone besides the Scorpion (which are the premier melee drone). This also leads you to forming other 'triads' of Martian machines - for example the triad of Reaper Tripod, Scorpion drone squad and Sniper drone squad. The Snipers provide fire support to the advancing other two, and they just melee the heck out of anything they encounter. Very effective. Of coarse the time setting of the scenario also has a huge affect on just what you can 'triad'. In earlier scenarios (1908-1912) you lack the various Scorpion, Sniper, and Shock drones for the above triads. These weaker triads become: Grenadier/Scout with targeter/Grenadier ; Slaver/Harvester/Drone or Hover Drone. The first uses the target/reveal blip fire/destroy unit revealed fire situation. Its weakness is the lack of a trench clearer against Armored/Assault Infantry so its just blow the heck out of them till they break. The second uses the assault ability of the Harvester (not too unlike the Reaper except for the lower armor of 11) for the same assault function of the Reaper and the Drones filling in for the Scorpions. Things were harder somewhat back then, but lets not forget the great victories the Martians had during the early years so it can't be that bad. All in all, a solid group of triads backed by a number of Dominator/Assault cells insures a blow to any human line.
It has been pointed out to me that the targeter has a specific range of 30" per the rule book page 120.
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