|
|
Post by loyalist on Apr 7, 2016 15:53:52 GMT
A unit of 3 flivvers can carry light field guns for 60 points, 45 more than 3 unarmed flivvers, which indicates light field guns cost 15 points each if on a portee.
A unit of 3 flivvers towing 3 medium field guns costs 95 points (15 for the flivvers and 80 for the 3 guns).
As described in Scott Washburn's book the Martians very rapidly developed tactics to defeat medium field artillery, ambushing them while being towed. The logical human response would be to mount the guns on trucks so they could be brought into action almost immediately by turning the trucks around.
Medium field guns on trucks are not covered by the rules, and there are no rules for the using light field guns on trucks except for the points cost of mounting them on flivvers. There are no rules for light field guns if being towed instead of truck-mounted (i.e. would a battery of 3 cost 45 points, or less than that if not on a truck?).
I plan to put one battery of Canadian medium field guns on trucks. By chance or design the gun wheels are an exact fit between the first two posts on the planked sides of flivvers. The gun axles are about 1mm too wide to fit inside the truck bed but with the axles on top of the sides the guns are at the same height above the bed as they would be if on wheels. Unfortunately the axles are too narrow to sit securely on the sides of the flivver so will need braces underneath them.
According to the towing rules a tow unit within 6" of a gun can pick it up, move it and deploy it in a single move phase, but the gun then counts as having moved and can't shoot until the next shooting phase. As stated on page 65 there is "rarely any benefit" in redeploying guns. The rules do not address light field guns on portees and whether they can move and still fire.
For a portee mounted gun to have any advantage in the game it must be able to fire after the truck has moved, and this should make the portee mounted gun more expensive. Would another 15 points per unit (not element) be enough for medium field guns on flivvers? |
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Apr 7, 2016 22:43:17 GMT
Hmm need to think on this one. I love the gun truck idea, always have. A nice 'light' gun is the AQ Holt Gun with the light howitzer. Two things occur to me - 1/what is the size of your 'medium' gun (3",4"?) 2/I would purpose that the porteed gun (of any type) is allowed to move and fire, as all thats needed is to drop braces and crew the gun to fire. 2nd movement phase is the putting the braces back up and securing the gun for movement. Will get back to you - sounds like a good concept - hope scott is 'listening' ref his second book.  |
|
|
|
Post by loyalist on Apr 7, 2016 23:29:52 GMT
It's the standard AD Medium field gun, which I think is supposed to be 75mm/3".
|
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Apr 8, 2016 9:01:57 GMT
Okay, that good. So you 'Medium Gun Truck' Unit of 3 elements/guns would cost in at about 75 to 90 points, mount a 3"/75mm gun, have the movement of a truck (including problems with terrain) and can Move & Fire, spending the 2nd Move to get ready to Move & Fire again. The stats for the gun remain the usual for a FA battery. I think I'd suggest the higher 90pts, 10 more than a standard towed FA battery, seems fairer. A point could be made that the 2nd Move phase should be easy and thus the usual Move/Fire/Move is indicated for the unit. If thats the case, 90pts is definately the number. What do you think?? Will this 'feel' right as well as play 'fair'?
|
|
|
|
Post by loyalist on Apr 8, 2016 10:12:24 GMT
90 points seems OK given the limitations on movement if the flivvers are hidden in some sort of difficult terrain.
|
|
|
|
Post by terrance on Apr 8, 2016 16:28:52 GMT
According to the towing rules a tow unit within 6" of a gun can pick it up, move it and deploy it in a single move phase, but the gun then counts as having moved and can't shoot until the next shooting phase. As stated on page 65 there is "rarely any benefit" in redeploying guns. The rules do not address light field guns on portees and whether they can move and still fire.
For a portee mounted gun to have any advantage in the game it must be able to fire after the truck has moved, and this should make the portee mounted gun more expensive. Would another 15 points per unit (not element) be enough for medium field guns on flivvers? Loyalist, coming back to the move and fire issue. Would it work to allow fire if the truck does not move the first movement phase? That is similar to the Fire from halt special rule like the MkIV 7" gun has. |
|
|
|
Post by loyalist on Apr 8, 2016 17:01:00 GMT
Hi Terrance,
The point of having a portee mounted gun, like British 6 pdrs. in the desert in WWII, is its ability to both move and fire. In the case of AQotMF that would be to move in the first movement phase and then shoot, which standard field guns are not allowed to do.
Firing after the truck hasn't moved in the first movement phase is exactly the same as the rule for field guns not on trucks, so there's no advantage to or reason for a portee mounted gun in AQotMF unless the rules allow the portee to move in the first phase and then fire.
|
|
|
|
Post by terrance on Apr 8, 2016 17:14:35 GMT
Oops. Spoke too soon. Had to do a quick review of the tow rules but you are right. Probably trying to too many things at once and confused myself.  So it does have to allow the gun trucks to move; fire; move. |
|
|
|
Post by terrance on Apr 8, 2016 17:15:36 GMT
BYW would a 1909 introduction date work, do you think? I'm starting to add fan-based units to the timeline.
|
|
|
|
Post by loyalist on Apr 8, 2016 20:19:09 GMT
What are the fan-based units so far?
|
|
|
|
Post by terrance on Apr 11, 2016 17:35:39 GMT
What are the fan-based units so far? MkIIIc from me. New drone types and tripods from Madmorgan. Some new tanks from Madmorgan. See the thread Equipment timelines in the Living rulebook folder. |
|
|
|
Post by mikedski on Apr 11, 2016 22:29:53 GMT
Artillery train. Working on Edison wires . River gun boat.
|
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Apr 12, 2016 9:53:24 GMT
I like the 1909 concept for the introduction of porte'd medium (and regular) guntrucks. Hope scott is 'listening' and can work a few into his next book. Mikes right, lots of nice stuff for the fan-based units.
|
|
|
|
Post by hardlec on Apr 13, 2016 18:45:10 GMT
Portee guns have a couple of disadvantages to offset their advantages.
They are very hard to hide while dug in. I would say they could have cover OR concealment/ambush, but not both without an additional point cost.
The battery would need specialist ammo trucks because the gun takes up all the space and weight for ammo.
In WWI there was scant need for extra mobile artillery. Otherwise it surely would have made a bigger showing. AA guns 3 inch hypervelocity rifles, were portee mounted.
|
|
|
|
Post by madmorgan on Apr 13, 2016 21:58:58 GMT
Makes sense - 3"/75mm is about the max I'd thought of. A few armored flivvers for ammo trucks do the job. I'd not even considered the gun truck to have a concealment/ambush capability; cover would be based on where the flivver parked - I figure they'd have a series of gun pits they could truck out of in succesive withdrawls. I agree about the 'scant need' in WW1, being such a fixed battlefield; in AQ this would change due to the mobility of the enemy. And a 3" gun firing of deathfromabove Tripod Buster Shells would be a good buy points wise. See the discussion with loyalist about the illogical progression of artillery in AQ. His observation that the MkIIMA 6" howitzer has the same stats as a 3" FA gun got me going on the whole AD progression on artillery. Its terrible within its own numbers. More on this later. TY for the imput on this.
|
|
So it does have to allow the gun trucks to move; fire; move.
