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Post by loyalist on Feb 25, 2016 15:56:41 GMT
I checked out the Jane's WWI navy book last evening, then went on-line looking at the late 1800s-early 1900s USN coastal monitors. All of them would be suitable for riverine use in AQotMF and contemporary with the timeline. There were about 10 monitors built between 1883 and 1903, most of them 255'-265' long, and armed with 2-4 heavy guns in 1-2 turrets. Five had 4 x 10" guns of short (40) caliber, 3 had 2 x 10" and 2 x 12" guns and the last pair, USS Ozark and Monterey, had a single turret with twin 12" guns.
The design of the monitors is very basic and they could easily be scratchbuilt. Most would be about 30" long in 1/92 scale. Smaller monitors could be built under the premise that they were reduced in size due to intended riverine use, therefore needing less fuel bunkerage, and having only a single heavy gun turret.
Pz3's 50mm wide naval turret designs would work very well for models of these ships, with addition of a second gun and increased diameter. For lighter armament they would have some HMGs and a couple of light guns. I think Morgan could come up with stats for the real monitors and smaller versions of them.
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Post by scottwashburn on Feb 25, 2016 20:00:55 GMT
Yes, I was looking at those same vessels a few weeks ago, trying to decide if it was practical to make paper models of them. Still haven't decided  |
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Post by loyalist on Feb 25, 2016 20:44:06 GMT
Their designs are rather simple. Hulls with less than 6' of freeboard, 1-2 round turrets, a central two level superstructure with flat sides and tapered ends, single funnel, single mast and a small bridge. I think they could easily be built from card or styrene.
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Post by madmorgan on Feb 26, 2016 12:36:50 GMT
Ohhh a line of "Great Martian War" Paper Terrain ships! I'd be buying those Scott! Don't overlook the British monitors as well. (no need for the Italian I think).
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Post by scottwashburn on Feb 26, 2016 13:53:01 GMT
I hope I'll have the time for them! I'm just finishing up the paper Napoleonics (did Wellington and his staff last night and that's the last of the graphics). Still need to get the sheets all organized and then print them out and get the PDF versions ready. That will take me up to Cold Wars. But after that I think I will give real history a break and maybe do some All Quiet stuff. I actually squeezed a couple of hours in for that the other week and sketched out a Martian heat ray tower. It still needs some work, but I ought to be able to finish it up pretty quickly.
The monitors will be a LOT more work, but maybe I can create a generic one. Some converted river steamers might be fun, too. We shall see.
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Post by madmorgan on Feb 26, 2016 14:17:52 GMT
Wonderful, more figures to buy from you at Cold Wars! (wink). Looking forward to a major purchase there from you (books, napys, additional train stuff in 15mm etc.) Drooling for the Martian static defense units also. As my research shows, there was little difference between the 4 BM types made. Here's a quick rundown for your appraisal. Arkansas and Nevada both had the 1x dual 12" turret fore, (4) 4" and (2) Nordenfelt 6pdr. Nevada is shown as 1mph faster (15mph vs 14mph)- no difference for your purposes. The Florida (renamed Tallahasse in 1908), had the same 12" and only (3) 4" with a single (1) 3" gun for some reason. The Wyoming (renamed Cheyenne in 1909) had the same 12" and (4) 4" arrangements, but had (3) QF 6pdrs and (4) 1pdr rapid fire guns. I found the best picture on Wiki was under the USS Ozark. For the record - they all had crews of 220 all ratings and a draft of only 12'6"! I give them an Armor 10 for AQ. I'll do a full workup on my Ships tab later. Hope this helps Scott |
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Post by loyalist on Feb 26, 2016 14:48:29 GMT
Riverboats converted to or used as is for troop transports would be useful. I've often thought of modelling my great, great grandfather's 1890s sidewheel riverboat 'May Queen' (~190' LOA; operated on the St. John River in New Brunswick, Canada). If built for AQotMF it would be about 22" long. There was a much larger model of it in the New Brunswick Museum when I was a kid.
A monitor accompanied by a troop transport to occupy a key river location or evacuate civilians would make a good scenario, similar to the AD one.
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Post by scottwashburn on Feb 26, 2016 14:50:37 GMT
I might do the Amphitrite Class just because I like the name Honestly, I could probably make it possible to do both the Amphitrite and the Arkansas class with the same model. Just have a different forward turret for the Arkansas and include a superstructure extension piece to cover the rear turret location and voila! The other differences are minor enough not to care about. But we shall see. I've learned to make no promises |
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Post by loyalist on Feb 26, 2016 14:53:30 GMT
I think the Amphitrite Class ships were the best looking. The Puritan was very similar in appearance but had heavier armor so is considered a different class by some historians.
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Post by madmorgan on Feb 27, 2016 12:23:36 GMT
Indeed! As an added bonus Old Glory has the Amphitrite as one of its IC 1:600 lines, so you could use both Paperterrains for 'soft' games and OG for 'hard' games (my term for all paperterrain & styrofoam boards vs resin/metal terrain and heavier material tables). An added bonus for using Scotts excellent Paperterrain is the full color of his work. Instant painting guide for a resin model. Game on!
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Post by boxholder on Mar 5, 2016 13:26:42 GMT
Scott, since you already have gun turrets for your city defensive walls, a generic ironclad hull with some gun options might be pretty simple and quick. Historical ones would obviously take more time. Many gamers might not be too bothered by generics. You can always apply "counts as..." agreements for gaming, especially if you like the models for their own sake.
It might also be possible to make the ironclads as modular boxes that can be temporarily joined with "blu-tack" poster mount. Some rectangular boxes to form the center of the hull and a couple of pointed ends for bow and stern would be quite flexible. Use as many centers with a bow and stern as desired. Then mount as many turrets as needed. Various kinds of superstructure could also be possible.
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Post by madmorgan on Mar 6, 2016 10:31:20 GMT
Indeed boxholder. I've been looking at monitors and other riverine units all over the world, most recently the Far East Japanese fleet. Except for the 'Canet' style mounting (a non-turreted kinda of barbette), almost all the worlds monitors were similiar, because most were based, or even built by, British or European countries - then sold to other nations. The Japanese did do their own building also. As far as the 'paddlewheel transports' see some of my ships above for that function. Many 'upgraded' ACW paddlewheelers could be made into 'paper' pieces, some more easily than others. The USS monitors are basically a floating platform with varied gun turrets. The CSS "Merrimac" or "Fredericksburg" are two examples of gunboats that, due to their boxy makeup, should be easy to create and perhaps even exchange bodies with. As the arrangement of gun ports seem the main different, a basic waterline base with interchangable 'tops' could work. The beauty of the idea is that you could do a host of different paddlewheel and ironclads ACW offerings. Might even go alone with your ACW troops to make some more interesting battles! Am looking forward to Cold Wars.
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Post by boxholder on Mar 7, 2016 2:41:49 GMT
Just to show the concept and I won't belabor it further. Admittedly "semi-scale', but if printed with "metal" texture with some rivets and panel lines they can be assembled to represent many ironclads. Only a few parts: bow, midship boxes, stern (rounded or pointed), stack. Casemates also possible  |
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Post by scottwashburn on Mar 7, 2016 16:15:59 GMT
In this period monitors were often called 'coast defense battleships' and they really did look more like a pre-dreadnought battleship than the Civil War monitors you have sketched here. However, I could see a lot of ad hoc river vessels being built or converted and many might look like what you have sketched. They would probably be armed with much lighter weapons than the 10" and 12" guns the modern monitors carried, but that could be very cool, too.
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Post by loyalist on Mar 7, 2016 16:32:15 GMT
Naval architecture had evolved so much since the early 1860s that I doubt any Martian War monitors would look like the ACW ships, even if ad hoc conversions or new construction specifically for the war. I favour the Amphitrite Class monitors being produced by Paper Terrain if possible, or a smaller version as new 'emergency program' ships, maybe with single gun turrets so the existing paper large turrets could be used.
For BEF ships I'm trying to decide between the M Class monitors with two 6" turrets and the Mersey/Severn Class ex-Brazilian river monitors taken over by the Royal Navy (also with single turrets fore and aft, which could mount Tesla or Coil guns instead of 6" guns). The latter are about the same length as the USN Amphtrite Class but much lighter due to very shallow draft and carried only light guns.
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