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Post by hardlec on Jul 10, 2018 15:42:42 GMT
The BAR was ready for WWI but not used (much) lest the Germans capture and copy it. Like the Thompson, it was designed to be a "Trench Broom." Another Trench Broom was the combat shotgun. Submachine Guns, AKA Machine Pistols, had far less penetration than a rifle and would be power -1 in my opinion.
NOW
A BAR with armor piercing ammo would be a power +1, ROF 2. The smallest guys carried the BAR so that the bigger guys could carry the heavier load, the Ammo. BTW: the M1 with a BAR box magazine and a selector lever for full auto becomes the M-14. The BAR was an awesome weapon, and needed only a belt-feed mechanism and a changeable barrel to be an actual machine gun. The BAR was not so upgraded for a couple of reasons, but a big reason was the amount of ammunition it would need. IMHO, it was a mistake to go to the M60 machine gun rather than upgrading the BAR.
A shotgun, which was a popular Gangster weapon, could use a variety of specialty ammunition, some of which would be effective against tripods. It is also reasonable to believe shotguns could be used to shoot grapples. How to use grapples on foot is another matter.
I do not like SMGs. They have very little power, and consequently very short range. For commandos, airborne troops and as a way to give gun crews and vehicle crews a little more firepower, they are adequate. I just can't see them being used against tripods. Pistol ammunition is designed to mushroom on impact, not to penetrate armor.
Stats-wise: I agree with Morgan but for SMGs getting -1 power. I'd allow an upgrade to a BAR to give it +1 power ROF-2 and charge 5 points for each infantry stand so armed. Shotguns are for another day.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 11, 2018 8:19:56 GMT
In Nam, when I was on base defense, I keep an M-14 next to my M-16 in the bunker. The M-14 had a much flatter trajectory, which worked well as the terrain around me was all level. The thing was heavy for field traveling - but I loved the M-14. Also note that the M-14 was designed to use standard NATO ammo (7.62mm) whereas the M-16 went to 5.56mm. The 7.62 round didn't 'tumble' through an enemy's body when hit as the 5.56 round did. I concur with the above revisions on my Infantry Weapons - does this work??
BAR @5pts Rng 15" +1Pow RF 2 Spec: May move and fire.
Thompson Sub Machine Gun (SMG) @0pts Rng 10" -Pow RF 2 Spec: attached at no cost.
The only problem with this is that I don't think there are any AQ figures with BARs - I'll have to check. I know the Marine figures have SMGs.
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Post by easye on Jul 11, 2018 19:23:32 GMT
I loved the show Combat! so much I made a mini-game version of it on my blog!
Anyway, I look forward to seeing how the "Citizen Militia" does in game. I am guessing they just die horribly!
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Post by easye on Jul 11, 2018 19:27:12 GMT
I think one of Eliot Ness's guys on the old Untouchables TV show used a BAR. Clyde Barrow used a cut-down BAR that he called a Whippit gun. (You carry it under an over coat and whip it out when you need it.) So the BAR definitley fits the gangster era. And on the old COMBAT! TV series, Caje (Cajun) was a big old boy who carried and used the squad BAR. Kirby had the BAR. Littlejohn was the big dude, but he had a rifle. Caje was a cajun, spoke French with the locals, and sometimes wore a berret; but had a rifle most of the time. Man, I loved that show!
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Post by boxholder on Jul 11, 2018 21:30:45 GMT
Oh how things get foggy. Thanks for the correction. Did you create the Combat with Vic Morrow game?
The one guy I really remember is Sgt Saunders with the Tommy gun that never ran dry. And the Lieutenant (David Jansen) who was always sending them off, showing up at the beginning and end of the episode.
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Post by mikedski on Jul 11, 2018 23:00:55 GMT
In Nam, when I was on base defense, I keep an M-14 next to my M-16 in the bunker. The M-14 had a much flatter trajectory, which worked well as the terrain around me was all level. The thing was heavy for field traveling - but I loved the M-14. Also note that the M-14 was designed to use standard NATO ammo (7.62mm) whereas the M-16 went to 5.56mm. The 7.62 round didn't 'tumble' through an enemy's body when hit as the 5.56 round did. I concur with the above revisions on my Infantry Weapons - does this work?? BAR @5pts Rng 15" +1Pow RF 2 Spec: May move and fire. Thompson Sub Machine Gun (SMG) @0pts Rng 10" -Pow RF 2 Spec: attached at no cost. The only problem with this is that I don't think there are any AQ figures with BARs - I'll have to check. I know the Marine figures have SMGs. The marine landing force does have BAR figures.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 12, 2018 11:21:47 GMT
Excellent - the new pics from IG are a bit small to my eyes to make out the weapons on the individual figures - ty! Now if someone would give me a count on the Number of SMGs and BARs in that unit, please...
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Post by easye on Jul 12, 2018 14:52:06 GMT
Oh how things get foggy. Thanks for the correction. Did you create the Combat with Vic Morrow game? The one guy I really remember is Sgt Saunders with the Tommy gun that never ran dry. And the Lieutenant (David Jansen) who was always sending them off, showing up at the beginning and end of the episode. Sure Did! app.box.com/s/thqwlz2djqyfwbrbt58v@mad and Mike- You are starting to change my mind on gangsters at 15-18mm.
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Post by mikedski on Jul 13, 2018 2:08:41 GMT
Sorry about the lighting and so-so paint job. These are the armed civilians. Each unit is a band of armed civilians lead by Memphis police equipped with tommy guns, shotguns, and hand guns. I have no idea what the actual police uniform at the time looked like but I wanted to make the police figures obvious compared to civilian garb. My theory is that Memphis would have been flush with military and Corps of Engineer support personnel and displaced people from the Plains when the Martians unexpectedly arrived from the north. Army quartermasters with the aid of city police and militia commanders would have thrown open their armories in desperation to any and all volunteers. The police were there to supervise the issue of arms and loosely organize and lead small groups to the north part of town. Armed civilians - infantry type unit - courageous morale - defense 3 , Range 0 Power 0 special rules: Armed with short range firearms can only launch assault attacks. Very vulnerable to black dust - re-roll successful defense rolls from black dust attacks. If a unit fails morale the unit is destroyed (no routing). The police know the city. Instead of shooting the unit can move an additional 4 inches during the combat phase.
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Post by Quendil on Jul 13, 2018 6:57:42 GMT
Looking very good
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Post by boxholder on Jul 13, 2018 12:07:54 GMT
Very nice work.
These should be cheap enough to have lots of them. They would make life interesting for Martians in a city fight. Lot of blips or simply say that any structure can conceal a unit of these guys. Rule that the human player can use them up to the maximum that he bought.
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Post by madmorgan on Jul 13, 2018 12:36:55 GMT
What was the points again on those guys?? The paint job is fine - police for the period had lots of city-to-city variety. I like the special move rule. When you get a point value assigned, I'll add them as an option to the Living Rule Book.
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Post by mikedski on Jul 13, 2018 17:13:27 GMT
What was the points again on those guys?? The paint job is fine - police for the period had lots of city-to-city variety. I like the special move rule. When you get a point value assigned, I'll add them as an option to the Living Rule Book. No price for freedom!! Actually, maybe the same price as lobotons?
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Post by hardlec on Jul 13, 2018 21:48:46 GMT
Civilians defending their homes and families should be courageous. I would submit that militia would be armed with such anti-tripod weapons as available. Training makes a big difference, but a stovepipe should take a day to learn at most. The visual difference between a BAR and an M1903 Springfield would not be that great.
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Post by mikedski on Jul 14, 2018 12:13:14 GMT
Civilians defending their homes and families should be courageous. I would submit that militia would be armed with such anti-tripod weapons as available. Training makes a big difference, but a stovepipe should take a day to learn at most. The visual difference between a BAR and an M1903 Springfield would not be that great. I debated about giving them a +1 or 2 power rating in assault to reflect grenades, explosives or even the odd rocket launcher.
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