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Post by phgamer on May 12, 2016 13:58:49 GMT
Part of the problems with forces in a scenario is every one will pick what is best for them. And not necessarily what would be available "realistically" A human infantry force would most likely have a 1-1 ratio of infantry squads to field artillery. When no army could have fielded that mix. 8-1 might be realistic. But what player would want to play that way? Or invest and paint all that infantry? On the other hand, that mix would have 5 tripods against 2 field gun batteries, 2 MG squads, and 24 infantry squads. And have almost 200 points to spare! I think the Martians would be in a bad way there.
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Post by madmorgan on May 13, 2016 11:50:04 GMT
Your point is very well taken. I suppose the next step is to limit artillery like the 'uncommon' or 'rare' tanks in the old AD rules pdfs. So on a company level (based on 1911 to&e from the book pgs. 82 & 83), there would be the Company HQ [Command Squad & Flivver], 1st Platoon [3 Infantry Squads & 1 HMG Squad & 1 Forlorn Hope], 2nd Platoon [3 Infantry Squads & Forlorn Hope], and 3rd Platoon [3 Infantry Squads & Forlorn Hope]. Artillery would be limited to 2 batteries of FA (note they were "horse drawn"!) and one battery of HFG. Whether you use the Support Company is a matter of points I suppose (Rough Riders & the 3 ATguns & the Heavy Infantry platoon). Boiling it down to a rule format: You may only take one battery of artillery per platoon of infantry you field. No more than one battery of Heavy Field Guns are allowed. In this case, you must take a FA battery first, before taking the HFG battery, which would require at least two full platoons of infantry. For a supplement rule: You may only take a battery of ATGuns if you have at least a full company of Infantry on the table.
The latter rule to allow some ATGs. I prefer to do it by types of units rather than points - a method that might work as well for the tanks from AD. This would prevent too much monkey business with points in order to get special or rare units on the board. AD had already started that thrend with their requirements on the MkIIIs (support = HMG) tanks and the AICs by requiring a full platoon of AICs to qualify for the HMG tanks.
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Post by mikedski on May 13, 2016 15:24:39 GMT
Transports. Page 64.
Does anyone else think the transport rules are way too generous?
I would have a different rules for transports.
A transport unit can either pick up OR disembark a unit once per phase.
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Post by terrance on May 13, 2016 16:51:05 GMT
Transports. Page 64.
Does anyone else think the transport rules are way too generous?
I would have a different rules for transports.
A transport unit can either pick up OR disembark a unit once per phase.
I agree. Pickup OR disembark once per phase seems more reasonable.
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Post by madmorgan on May 14, 2016 8:40:27 GMT
Once per phase vs once per turn right?? So - Flivver Platoon (3 trucks) picks up an Infantry platoon (3 squads) in Move phase A, moving its full movement. On Move phase B, after the Fire Phase, it moves its full movement and disembarks the platoon. This doesn't allow for an assault by the infantry till after Move phase A of a 2nd turn. And it would really crimp the AIC assault capacity, as most won't survive a Martian fire phase after moving into position. Maybe I misread your twos comment?? Not sure I like that change for the above reason.
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Post by mikedski on May 14, 2016 10:56:44 GMT
Once per phase vs once per turn right?? So - Flivver Platoon (3 trucks) picks up an Infantry platoon (3 squads) in Move phase A, moving its full movement. On Move phase B, after the Fire Phase, it moves its full movement and disembarks the platoon. This doesn't allow for an assault by the infantry till after Move phase A of a 2nd turn. And it would really crimp the AIC assault capacity, as most won't survive a Martian fire phase after moving into position. Maybe I misread your twos comment?? Not sure I like that change for the above reason. You are correct. You either pick up OR dismount per phase.
The current transport rules turn flivvers into magic carpets.
A: For example:
Phase 1: An infantry unit is 6 inches away from a flivver unit can be picked up , moved ten inches, and then the can dismount up to 6 inches away.
Shooting phase: The infantry unit is free to assault or shoot.
Phase 2: The infantry unit remounts again and the flivver moves another ten inches. The infantry unit is free to dismount and move up to 6 inches away from the transports.
so... an infantry unit with flivvers can move up to 32 inches a turn and still be able to shoot or assault ( 6 + 10 + 10 + 6). The rough riders on their motorcycles can only move 20 inches a turn. A scout tripod can only move 20 inches a turn. Flivvers are the equivalent of 5 orders tokens of movement for a basic infantry squad.
B) With the rules as they are passengers in transports are immune from fire because, per page 64, " the enemy cannot shoot a unit that is being transported... but if the transporting unit is destroyed, the unit it carries must immediately deploy.... the unit itself is unharmed."
Based on A and B above There is absolutely no disadvantage to riding in soft skin vehicles in the face of an enemy armed with heat rays because you can either get out of the transport before the enemy can shoot (as noted above) or the transport unit is ablative armor if for whatever odd reason they remain on the vehicles.
C) Don't forget, flivvers have a defense rating of 5. So a 50% chance of being missed when shot at anyway.
D) Flivvers have the same open terrain movement ability as a steam tank per the Road Vehicle rule on page 104. If you ask me, flivvers should have a full movement capability just on roads, then 1/2 movement capability off road, and then 1/4 movement capability in difficult terrain.
I like my flivvers. I have about several units of them. I just think they need to be more realistic as far as capabilities and vulnerabilities.
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Post by mikedski on May 14, 2016 11:33:18 GMT
Part of the problems with forces in a scenario is every one will pick what is best for them. And not necessarily what would be available "realistically" A human infantry force would most likely have a 1-1 ratio of infantry squads to field artillery. When no army could have fielded that mix. 8-1 might be realistic. But what player would want to play that way? Or invest and paint all that infantry? On the other hand, that mix would have 5 tripods against 2 field gun batteries, 2 MG squads, and 24 infantry squads. And have almost 200 points to spare! I think the Martians would be in a bad way there.
The available historical fluff is the humans have been at war for 4 years or so and now ensconced behind the Mississippi River. I suppose infantry would be more a screening force to the heavier weapons like HMGs and arty that can actually hurt a tripod. so I could see a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of infantry to heavy weapons. My typical infantry platoon has two infantry unit and one HMG unit. And even though not mentioned in the book an infantry company may have an independent HMG platoon and mortars to fend off drones.
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Post by madmorgan on May 16, 2016 9:22:48 GMT
TY. I'd never noticed that the rule on page 104, indicated "difficult" terrain only. Kinda always thought it was "off road". And the whole 'can't hit unit being transported' is really bunk. One of the reasons for the AIC is to help infantry survive to assault. And to overcome terrain crossing (hence why I thought it was offroad for the 1"= 4" rule). Why do the trucks have a better defense rating than the tanks - they should be at least 4 or better 3? I suppose a new rule or rewrite (hmmm change vs optional-I prefer change in this case), is in the offing, as they do need a rework. Based on the above, what do you suggest? My thoughts are changes: Def 3 Arm 3 (or 2!) Road Bound: speed is 10" on roads, 1"= 2" offroad, and 1" = 4" in difficult terrain. A further idea - Infantry (or other units?) may only assault 3" from flivvers. (??). What do you think??
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Post by spectre07 on May 27, 2016 15:48:08 GMT
Honestly i think that the infantry should also be limited to a 1/2 movement allowance on embark/ disembark movement not the magic 6 inch rule.
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Post by easyred2 on May 31, 2016 13:48:19 GMT
Really appreciate the analysis of the rules to improve on them you guys are doing. At some point will all this be put into a Word document that can be downloaded? That way there would be one go to document that all of us could refer to and print out. If it is in Word, we could add pics as needed or cut and paste to make cheat sheets.
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Post by loyalist on May 31, 2016 15:57:23 GMT
Transports. Page 64.
Does anyone else think the transport rules are way too generous?
I would have a different rules for transports.
A transport unit can either pick up OR disembark a unit once per phase.
I read them again last weekend and realized I could move an artillery or infantry element significantly further than expected by using a transport. A Cardigan carrier can pick up a BEF infantry unit or a gun up to 6" away from it and move it another 7" in the first movement phase. I don't have the rule book on hand but think it can move another 7" in the second movement phase and then deploy whatever it's transporting up to 6" away again. If I remember correctly that's a move of 26" versus 12" max without a transport or special rule.
I'd suggest a transport can either pick up or disembark a unit in a game turn but not do both. In the case of a Cardigan carrier it would transport a unit a maximum of 20" in a single turn versus 12" without a transport, or 26" with picking up and disembarking in the same turn.
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Post by tenchuu on Jun 1, 2016 0:32:32 GMT
Yeah, wow, didn't know you guys were doing this. Really great work.
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Post by madmorgan on Jun 1, 2016 19:53:28 GMT
I'll have to mull over this discussion some more.
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